 Susan Shepard |
Working with Noise Reduction Software After applying noise reduction, I notice my photo doesn't seem to have the same crispness and brilliance of other images. Why is that?
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Richard Lynch |
While this depends a little on the type of noise reduction you are applying, noise reduction works by blending/blurring. The problem comes in when your noise reduction software can't distinguish from image details. In short (and again, some methods of noise reduction are superior to others), detail in your image may be compromised by noise reduction - the detail gets reduced with the noise. It would be a lot easier to tell what you were talking about in this case if you uploaded an example. But I'd keep noise reduction to a minimum in any case.
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dennis w. mcclain |
there are methods of sharpining edges. this might help with your problem. this helps keep from increasing the noise on the whole, while giving you a crisper image. its to long to go into in this message. I would just google " sharpining edges in photoshop. the neat image plugin also has a filter and sharpen method.
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Paul Stewart |
I use Noiseware and could not be happier. Very intuitive and easy to use software. It comes as a standalone program and/or a plugin for Adobe Photoshop. I downloaded all the top contenders, Noise Ninja etc and after using them all it was clear to me that Noiseware stood out as the best on the market. I agree you should noise reduction sparingly if you are using a low end product. As Richard points out keep it to a minimum if you are using the noise reduction that comes with Photoshop or Photoshop elements or Paint Shop Pro etc. The noise reduction that comes with these programs is inferior. Mind you, I'm not knocking Photoshop, it is the best image editing program in the world. But for noise reduction it is weak. Noise reduction has simple presets and slider controls that aptly named. With Noiseware you can reduce noise and control the details by using it's sharpening/edge preserving controls. Truth be told Noiseware's sharpening control works better than Photoshop's Smart Sharpen or Unsharp Mask tools. I now use Noiseware for both noise reduction and sharpening. If there is little noise in my image, I reduce the noise reduction to minimum and use it for it's sharpening capabilities. If the photo has a lot of noise I use both etc. Again it is very easy to use and works wonderfully. If Noiseware won’t fix it, it's probably too far gone for anything out there today to repair. Hope this helps, keep shooting....... Paul Stewart
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Paul Stewart |
I use Noiseware and could not be happier. Very intuitive and easy to use software. It comes as a standalone program and/or a plugin for Adobe Photoshop. I downloaded all the top contenders, Noise Ninja etc and after using them all it was clear to me that Noiseware stood out as the best on the market. I agree you should noise reduction sparingly if you are using a low end product. As Richard points out keep it to a minimum if you are using the noise reduction that comes with Photoshop or Photoshop elements or Paint Shop Pro etc. The noise reduction that comes with these programs is inferior. Mind you, I'm not knocking Photoshop, it is the best image editing program in the world. But for noise reduction it is weak. Noise reduction has simple presets and slider controls that aptly named. With Noiseware you can reduce noise and control the details by using it's sharpening/edge preserving controls. Truth be told Noiseware's sharpening control works better than Photoshop's Smart Sharpen or Unsharp Mask tools. I now use Noiseware for both noise reduction and sharpening. If there is little noise in my image, I reduce the noise reduction to minimum and use it for it's sharpening capabilities. If the photo has a lot of noise I use both etc. Again it is very easy to use and works wonderfully. If Noiseware won’t fix it, it's probably too far gone for anything out there today to repair. Hope this helps, keep shooting....... Paul Stewart
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Paul Stewart |
Susan, I use Noiseware and could not be happier. Very intuitive and easy to use software. It comes as a standalone program and/or a plugin for Adobe Photoshop. I downloaded all the top contenders, Noise Ninja etc and after using them all it was clear to me that Noiseware stood out as the best on the market. I agree you should noise reduction sparingly if you are using a low end product. As Richard points out keep it to a minimum if you are using the noise reduction that comes with Photoshop or Photoshop elements or Paint Shop Pro etc. The noise reduction that comes with these programs is inferior. Mind you, I'm not knocking Photoshop, it is the best image editing program in the world. But for noise reduction it is weak. Noise reduction has simple presets and slider controls that aptly named. With Noiseware you can reduce noise and control the details by using it's sharpening/edge preserving controls. Truth be told Noiseware's sharpening control works better than Photoshop's Smart Sharpen or Unsharp Mask tools. I now use Noiseware for both noise reduction and sharpening. If there is little noise in my image, I reduce the noise reduction to minimum and use it for it's sharpening capabilities. If the photo has a lot of noise I use both etc. Again it is very easy to use and works wonderfully. If Noiseware won’t fix it, it's probably too far gone for anything out there today to repair. Hope this helps, keep shooting....... Paul Stewart
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Paul Stewart |
Susan, Sorry about the multiple replies. When I clicked "submit" I got an error message indicating the reply had not worked so I hit back and tried againt two times. While photography may qualify as an OCD in my case, replying to q&a on this site is not something I feel compelled to do numerous times. Can't find any provision for removing replies submitted, so I have no way to remove the repeats. Paul
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Richard Lynch |
Paul, I downloaded the free trial of Noiseware and tried it out on a few images, including one that I keep around as notoriously difficult (a short depth-of-field image with lots of fine detail, but lots of noise that I have only had success correcting manually). Granted I do not know all the ins-and-outs of the Noiseware tool, and from what I see Noiseware does have some interesting controls and capabilities, but still reduces detail, even at the highest level of detail protection using settings that accomplish something in the image. The reduction of detail is really a necessary evil in the case of noise reduction. On the other hand, I did not see controls that allow controlled masking or targeting of noise reduction to individual channels or components of color models as I might more regularly do when aproaching noise reduction in Photoshop. It does apply to selected areas, but does not seem to have its own masking tools (beside a rectangular marquee). I don't doubt that you achieve acceptable results for your needs, but it may also have to do with the type of noise being corrected, and other noise types may not be handled as well. If noise is generally a great enough concern that you need to consider noise reduction software, it is probably best that you look at what is causing the noise in the first place and repair that rather than considering compromising sharpness and detail. For example, if you are getting a lot of noise in low-light exposures or high ISO settings, you may want to avoid those situations or carry reflectors or some type of lighting to help offset the problem. I have a Sigma SD9 which was notorious for long-exposure noise, and while it helped me develop some pretty good manual noise reduction solutions (some of which I teach in my Leveraging Layers course), the ultimate solution was getting an SD10, when it came out, which had much less noise and virtually solved the problem. Noise problems in images are some of the most difficult things to solve because there is no great automated method of defining the difference between noise and detail. I still deal with noise on occassion, but it is isolated, and when it seems worth the effort, I use layering techniques that I can customize to the needs of the image--such as applying selective blurs or softening techniques masked to channels, tones or specific areas of an image. The masking helps reduce the potential areas of detail that I am always suspicious of any automated corrections, as computers can calculate, but they cannot judge the look of an image.
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dennis w. mcclain |
i tryed noiseware as well. just the quik and dirty of it, it works well. by default seemed top do a much better job than neatimage.i think it will really spead up my workflow. im still just really getting started in photography. at first I was just doing protrait, were I have more control over the lighing. now im doing alot more event photojornalism. since im still using the standard lens wth my rebel xt,iim having to bump up the iso to get proper exposer. I compared the 2 programs side by side, and noiseware won. keep in mind this is just with defualt setings, I havnt had a chance to really get in and play with the advanced controls. there is a pdf on their site that gives some great tutorials on how to use it. I am thinking the ability to easily manipulate each color and tone will be a great boon. im hoping in the near future to get faster optics with is. to help keep the noise down on the capture end. but as my mom alwasys says. poor people got poor ways. happy shooting
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Paul Stewart |
Richard, I understand what you are saying and agree generally. What I am suggesting is that Noiseware is the best tool available today. I'm not suggesting it is perfect, or able to take a terrible picture and make it a great one. I also use multiple layers when Noiseware is robbing more detail than I can tolerate. IE: Duplicate the background layer, apply noiseware to the duplicate layer, apply a layer mask, and brush away the areas where the detail was lost to reveal the sharpness in the original layer etc. Photoshop 101. I use a Wacom Intuos 3 and it provides even more control of Photoshop brushes via pressure and tilt sensitivity. I also play with the layer opacity settings at times to diminish the overall effect etc. Control like this requires a willingness to spend a pretty serious chunk of change for Photoshop and a Wacom tablet. Not everyone is willing or able to do that. I have no way of knowing what hardware/software Susan currently owns, but I did get the impression what she is using works poorly. In my view Noiseware is the best noise reduction tool on the market and at 79 bucks it's well worth the investment. If there is better noise reduction software out there...somebody let me know..I'm all ears. Paul
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Paul Stewart |
Dennis, Neatimage was one that I tried also along with Noise Ninja. By most accounts those are the three top players in noise reduction today. I came to the same conclusion. Not to sound like a Imagenomic rep, but you ougtht to give a look at Imagenomic's Portraiture for your portrait work. Its like having a make up professional and dermotologist on staff. Again, I'm not saying the results are as good as you might get if you spent a lot of time tweaking and twitching images in Photoshop. As much as I love working in Photoshop, there are very few images I'm willing to spend even an hour on in post production. Tools like Noiseware and Portraiture are quick and dirty to be sure. But on a 8x10 or 11x14 shot with a good camera, geeze louise, the results are usually outstanding. I'm no pro either, just love to shoot. Take care fella, Paul
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Ariel Lepor |
Noise reduction attempts to smooth colors while still keeping boarders. I use Helicon Filter for my noise reduction and am very happy with it. It is free. In the non-free versions, you can also specify which colors to use noise reduction on. You can sharpen the photos in the same program as you reduce noise before saving it, so that is cool. You can also use brushes to reduce noise over certain areas and undo noise reduction with another brush. Check it out.
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dennis w. mcclain |
as I agree that noise reduction software does soften detail to some degree. you can always sharpen the edges. that way you get a smooth image with sharp detail. as with anything. its finding the right balance. what im saying is that I agree with paul on the fact that by default settings its better than neatimage. at least with helping smooth out high iso noise. I know this because I decided to find out by haveing prints made and judging from them. thats what your customers will judge from. noiseware just won out in my book. oh and paul, I definantly have portature on my list. anything that can speed up customer work. that way I can spend more time being creative with the artsy stuff.
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Kevin La Rue |
Hi all, A recurring comment on this thread is that all the current noise reduction software often softens or blurs images as a result of reducing noise. Nik Software just released Dfine 2.0, an update to their noise reduction plug-in for Photoshop. One of the key features is precise control over where the noise reduction is applied. Sure, you can apply it on the whole image, but there are also several methods for selectively applying it. Here's the URL for more info on Dfine 2.0, plus you can download a free trial version: http://niksoftware.com/dfine Cheers,
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Ariel Lepor |
Selective noise reduction is nothing new. Helicon Filter has allowed for noise reduction to the whole image, to sharp areas, to softer areas, to specific colors, how much for different parts/types of the image, an edge-detecting noise-reduction brush, etc.
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Richard Lynch |
You have selective noise reduction in Photoshop. Try this (a rough manual version, but you should get the idea): 1. Create a new layer at the top of your layer stack. You could automate this by having a masking action to mask edges. Automated tools have a characteristic softness...and they reduce the quality of sharpness in your images. It is part and parcel of what they do. I never use them, and I wouldn't for my own images or for clients.
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Oliver Anderson |
Noise Ninja is also great at reducing unwanted noise in photos and works as a GREAT plugin with photoshop.
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Oliver Anderson |
Noise Ninja is also great at reducing unwanted noise in photos and works as a GREAT plugin with photoshop.
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Kevin La Rue |
Richard - check out Dfine if you have a chance. 9 steps in PS go to 2 steps: 1. place a Control Point 2. slide to reduce noise It automatically creates the mask, etc. so it's easy to later adjust using the Opacity slider, etc. There are also a bunch of other ways to selectively apply including most of the ones Ariel mentioned with Helicon. One of my pro photographer friends says he's most impressed by the speed. If you always shoot with the same camera/profile, you can literally set Dfine up to be a one or two-click affair per image (and of course batch process with an Action).
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Ariel Lepor |
You only made two posts here, both of them promoting Dfine. You also have no gallery. Now not to say Dfine is worse than other options, but why should I believe you are not working for Nik Software?
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Kevin La Rue |
Hi Ariel - I hope I haven't slighted you personally (or anyone else for that matter). I started working for Nik several months ago - it's in my profile - and don't think I promoted Dfine any more than anyone else who mentioned their tool of choice on this thread. Thanks also for the tip about the gallery. Check out some of the photos I loaded today and let me know what you think. I haven't been able to search on my name yet, so here's the URL: http://tinyurl.com/2lfxme Cheers, KLR
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Richard Lynch |
Kevin, Learning new software is never 2 steps. The nine steps could be two just as well if I made an action, and could be quite a bit more sophisticated -- I can automate mask creation asa well. The fact is I have been using Photoshop for 15 years and NEVER advocate using automated software for anything because it cannot see what it is doing. It is bound to make bad choices and grievous errors. Far better to learn to use Photoshop or get rid of the noise problem at the root than to take noisy pictures and allow some automated tool to 'do it for you'. I have yet to meet the tool that does. Noise reduction is a matter of blurring, and it you take the time to focus and use good practice it can do more to be counter-productive than helpful.
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Ariel Lepor |
All right. So fine, Dfine (or Helicon) can do selective noise reduction fairly simply, and requires less knowledge than standard Photoshop. But it is good to know where you are coming from; it helps to know whether a reviewer likes the product and is also getting paid by the company, or if they just like the product. Kevin, you got some nice pictures. Keep improving. :)
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Kevin La Rue |
Richard - your credentials are impeccable and your responses in this thread have been very professional and educational. I'm certainly not a PS whiz by any stretch. I agree if you have the skills to NOT take a noisy picture to begin with that is the best course. Having said that, if confronted with a noisy image that I want to save despite MY lack of PS skills or really any "painterly" artistic talent, I would likely first turn to an automated tool if only to see whether its noise reduction suited my needs and personal tastes. Bear in mind that I generally take family pictures and other personal pictures which are not for sale and print in 8x10 or less. By and large, it's good for people to be aware of the choices and their resultant limitations no matter what path they take. Ariel - thanks for the kind words about the pics. I know I have a long way to go - I'm sure that's why my friend Laurie suggested I come to the site! LOL Cheers folks,
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