Dede Carver |
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How to shoot a large group in the evening
I was asked by a friend to shoot their class reunion this weekend 8/12. It will be an evening shot 7:30pm and the group would like to gather in an area facing South. The sun goes down around 8:50ish if that will help to answer the question. I imagine the group size will be between 50 and 70. Anyone with interest to order will receive an 8 x 10. I need tips on lighting and how to keep everyone's face in focus. I tried this once before with a smaller group and it was somewhat blurry. Wrong aperature maybe. I would really appreciate anyone's tips as I am just a mom who shoots lots of pix of my kids. I am by no means even an ameture. Thanks so much!!!!
July 05, 2003
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Maynard McKillen |
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Dear Dede:
Can you describe the camera and flash equipment available to you?
From your description, it sounds like the group photo will be outdoors, and not indoors near some large windows. Is there open sky in the area where you plan to photograph the group, or are there large trees or buildings blocking the skylight?
Do you have risers or steps available so you can put subjects into rows? Consider, too, using a tall tripod and stepladder to achieve a slightly higher-than-head-level point of view. That way your camera will probably be pointed down slightly, which can decrease the difference in distance between the front and back rows. To assure front and back rows are equally sharp, you'll tend toward smaller f/stops like f/8, maybe even f/11.
You'll also be using slower shutter speeds in the fading light, so the tripod has to be sturdy. Consider renting/borrowing one if yours isn't tall enough.
What you tell us about your flash equipment will influence other suggestions...
July 06, 2003
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Dede Carver |
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Thanks so much for answering my question. I was praying I would have some help as this is something I have never done before. How awful for them to count on me and then to screw it up. Details, details are what I need in "mom" terms not as much in "photographer" terms.
I have some nice equipment due to an indulging husband. The knowledge and understanding of how to put it all together is what I know need....
I have a Canon EOS 3 and a Rebel 2000. I use the Rebel the most as I am a tad afraid of all the bells and whistles on the 3. I have a 550EX flash, two pro lights with a softbox and a umbrella. My tripod probably extends to about 6 feet high. I have a cable release, a light meter, and a 5 in 1 reflector. I have a step ladder in the garage, no risers. I might not have a clue how to use all of this, or at least not be very confident, but at least I look good. HA!
i am attaching the example of the last reunion picture this group had taken. It was from some pro photographer in a town near by. The person in charge didn't get it scheduled enough ahead of time for them to come back, hence asking me. It will be outside again, but a suppose it could be almost anywhere. It's at a country club. This particular picture is on the back side of the club house facing South. The North side is nicer and I would like to try it there possibly. Can you give me a few examples, with and without trees - north facing south facing.
Cant wait to hear from you.
July 07, 2003
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Dede Carver |
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class reuinon
unknown, camera was not as says
Dede Carver
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Tried this earlier, trying again. DeDe
July 07, 2003
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Maynard McKillen |
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Dear Dede:
You're not by chance just a bit excited that this photo may turn out really well, are you?
Tell me about the "Pro" Lights. Are they Lowell brand Pro-Lights, which are similar to flood lights you might use in a garage or a construction site, or are these prolights a type of studio flash? While you're checking, read the manuals to find out what level of power the units have. Power may be expressed as a Guide Number, or be given in Watt-Seconds. Also check and see if the prolights have a built-in slave. More on that in a minute.
Does this country club have any kind of balcony or deck? Imagine standing on the deck, posing the group below, and having them look up. The members' faces are the most important aspect of the photo you'd like to capture, especially with such a large group, so if you're above them, the angle sort of "evens out" height differences, slims down people, and eliminates distracting background elements.
Imagine shooting with your Rebel or EOS3, mounting the 550EX flash on the hot shoe, and putting each prolight about six feet away from you on either side. If the prolights have built-in slaves, they might fire when your 550EX does, and provide a wash of light on the subjects.
Does your light meter measure flash?
More details to follow...
July 07, 2003
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Dede Carver |
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When I grow up I want to be like you. I'm 35 so I better get going. HEhe
I am not as much anxious as I am nervous about letting these people down. My equipment makes me look like I know what I am doing.....little do they know.....yet I don't want them to find out. You are an answer to my prayers if you can get me any further than me just showing up and snapping the picture.
My lights are from Alien Bees which is a sister company to White Lightning. They are not both the same watts however as I bought them for studio protrait "work" of my children. The B800 has 320 true wattsecond with a recycle time of 1 second. The B400 has 160 true ws and a .5 second recycle time. They work as slaves with my 550EX. They are brand new to me, I have yet to take a picture with them. I'm not sure what the numbers on the top mean, but I am assuming they have something to do with adjusting the light ratio. My light meter measures flash and can be adjusted to a flat disk or the half moon look.
Unfortunately this is a small town and the club reflects that. No balcony. Darn. I loved that idea. I hope you have some more ideas up your sleeve. Thanks again for taking your time to help me. It means so much. DeDePS What did you think of the picture from the photographer 5 years ago?
July 07, 2003
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Maynard McKillen |
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Dear Dede:
You might set up the AlienBees units and 550EX flash in your backyard in a setup similar to what you might use on Saturday, at about the same time of day, to perform this test. (Using your posted photo, or an actual body count from the organizers, you can estimate the width of the group.) Place the 550 in the middle, set to full power manual, at the place where you will be shooting, and place the ABs one to either side and slightly closer to the subjects so their slave units "see" the burst of light from the 550. The Abs should be on lightstands at least eight feet high, and each perhaps about six to eight feet from the 550. Turn on the slave units in both AlienBees, set the B400 unit at full power, the B800 at half power (so they have the same light output), put on the standard reflectors, skip the umbrella and softbox, and aim the flash units so that the three would cover a group about the size shown in the photo. Stand with the light meter in the middle of the area where the subjects will be, put the hemisphere (white dome) in place on the flash meter (set it to measure for, say, 200ISO film), point the dome towards the lights, and have your husband push the test button on the 550 flash. Do all three flash units fire? If not, try taping a small white card near the slave receptor of each Alienbee, positioned to reflect more of the 550 flash burst onto the receptor. If all three fire, check the meter readout. For a group this large and deep (four, maybe five rows), you'd like to see an f/stop like f/8; f/11 would be even better.
As to posing the group, get them to "sardine": people to the left of center, as you see them from camera viewpoint, should turn at a 45 degree angle so their right shoulder is closer to the camera. People right of center do the opposite. You'll fit more people per row, slim down your subjects, and you can then move the camera and flash units closer. This may be necessary if the flash meter isn't showing that you can shoot at f/8.
In the sample photo you posted, I like the way the woman in the front row, third from the right as I recall, had turned her legs and torso to the side.
If your tripod has to go higher than six feet (Try "seeing" a few volunteer neighbors from your stepladder, some sitting on the ground, some in chairs or kneeling, some standing. Look through the camera, with the latter about seven or eight feet off the ground.), you can put each leg on a folding chair or similar extension.
Did you expect this much effort? And a word of warning: If you pull this off, you'll be asked to do it again!
Your camera will be set in manual exposure mode, with the F/stop at f/8. To find the shutter speed, stand again where the subjects will be, set your meter to take an incident reading of the ambient (available) light, rather than flash, and set your camera shutter speed to the one recommended. If, however, it is late enough in the day that your meter is recommending a one second exposure, or longer, you might just try 1/15th of a second. By using a slower shutter speed, one close to what the meter recommends, you are collecting more available light during the time the shutter is open. The photo tends to look more natural, and less like one taken solely with flash. Even at 1/15th, you'll have to avoid shaking or jarring the tripod, and your subjects need to be warned not to make any sudden movements.
This is...ambitious.
July 07, 2003
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Dede Carver |
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Ambitous? How about stupid?????
I'm from Iowa. Are you near or can you be here by Saturday at 5:30? HA
I am going to print this off. Study it. Try a few of your suggestions and see what I come up with. Are you going to be able to check your mail before Saturday for my last minute panic questions. My I hope so!!! THANKS and THANKS again. You are a terrific person to put so much time into this question!!!!!!! DeDe
July 07, 2003
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Maynard McKillen |
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Dear Dede:
There is a strong chance that by that time of day on Saturday I will be on a ladder, looking down at a large group of wedding guests, offering suggestions to fine tune their posing...
A few thoughts: If your lens is a 28-105 or something similar, you may be tempted to set it at 28mm: resist the urge. While the wide angle view you get at 28mm makes it easy to get closer, people near the edges of the photo might, just might, be distorted in shape. A setting near 35mm may prove more acceptable.
Getting up high and looking down on the group, while not convenient, does somewhat "even out" the distance between the front and back rows. The focus and exposure of the front and back rows tends to be more equal if you make the effort.
You did say your husband was the doting, affectionate, indulgent type, right? The kind of soul mate who wouldn't hesistate to help carry and set up that equipment, engage the guests in conversation while you check your composition, and otherwise support your avocation? At least that's what I think I'm reading in between those lines...
July 08, 2003
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Dede Carver |
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Maynard.
You totally have my husband's number - I'm a fortunate woman. Unfortunately he's a pilot and won't be around. Can't complain as he at least still has a job to go to. Instead, I'm bringing a friend who has to be reminded to breathe once in awhile she talks so much! She ought to entertain them a bit.
I went to the club and found a spot I like. There is beautiful landscaping with landscaping bricks to place people. What do you think of kind of placing them sparatically around the landscaping in groups instead of in a straight line? Also there is a slight twist to this location. It has a slight or a gradual incline. I would be standing lower than them if on flat feet. How could I make this work? Still use the step ladder? Could I stand as tall as needed to place the camera on a small tripod at the top step and still make a go. Guess that needs to be judged by how the ladder is and how much of an incline the hill is. How do I know if I am making the right call as far as being high enough. Should I feel like I am looking down on them or even with the backrow at least? Also, I will need the lights for fill. How close do I place them from the group or from my camera? Again, you are a saint and if I pull this off you can take full credit for everything except pushing the button. DeDe
July 09, 2003
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Maynard McKillen |
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Dear Dede:
Clustering the group members as opposed to lining them up can certainly produce a more pleasing composition since it will show off some of the landscaping between the clusters. Give some thought to this: if the end result is an 8x10 photo of the group, how large will the subjects be within the image? Large enough that individuals are easy to identify?
I say go with the ladder. People who view the finished photo will not likely be distracted by the higher than normal viewpoint. Indeed, it may add some interest.
You may, while your chatty friend is arranging clusters, actually check the composition at several different heights to find one that pleases you. And ,while you're at it, why not take the actual photo from several different heights? With that many eyes in the photo, some of them just waiting for the right (i.e., wrong) moment to blink, you may want to shoot 8 to 10 photos. Warn the subjects that you will count to three and then shoot, so they can anticipate the moment and strive not to blink.
If it looks like the group may still range from, 30 to 60 or so individuals, I'd still keep the additional lights about six feet to either side of your camera and 550, and if you arrive early enough (recommended), you can test the placement to make sure the AB slaves are triggered by the 550 flash burst. The Abs themselves should be only slightly closer to the subjects than the camera, so their slave sensors "see" the 550 flash burst. You can probably set the zoom head on the 550 manually, so I sugggest you set it to the wide setting, which may be 24mm on that flash, so the light from the 550 overlaps the light from the ABs and helps to even it all out.
If the ladder seems stable enough at the site, and sturdy enough, you may find it easier to clamp or brace the tripod onto or against the ladder (Dare I say it, "Duct tape to the rescue!")
July 10, 2003
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Dede Carver |
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You are sooooooo good!
Are you up for a challenge?
I have NEVER messed with my flash to set a single thing. I am so dying to figure this out that I have even emailed Jim Miotke asking about a book that teaches how to use flash. He wrote back and said that in his opinion there are none. I told him that that should be his next million - write a book entiteled flash for dummies. I have the manual, it says how to to adjust, but simply leaves out the part about why I should use this mode or that mode and when to use them! I can't stand how so many mannuals assume a person already knows this stuff. Soooo. Can you give me a crash course? Are you wishing you never answered the original question? DeDe
July 10, 2003
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Maynard McKillen |
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Dear Dede:
Many people just turn on the 550 and let it do the rest. Often that will produce good flash photos. What I suggested, that is, putting the flash in full power manual, should be easy, though.
When you turn the flash on, the LCD display probably shows something like this at the top- "TTL A ZOOM".
Below the LCD display you'll find buttons, one labeled MODE. Push it once. I suspect that will put the flash in full power manual, and the LCD display will show something like this- "M 1/1".
I don't happen to own a 550 flash, but I do own several older Canon flash units, which I suspect have displays very similar to that of the 550.
In manual, the flash discharges at full power, and that's desirable in this shooting situation. You need plenty of flash immuminating this large group.
A final thought: if you haven't tested the three flash units and taken a flash meter reading to see if the combined light will allow you to shoot at f/8, you might want to take along a roll of 200ISO film and also a roll of 400ISO film. When you take the flash meter reading at the country club, set the flash meter ISO at 200 first and see if there is enough light coming from all three units combined to let you shoot at f/8. If your light meter happens to show f/5.6 for ISO200 (one stop less light than you need), you can try moving the AB lights a bit closer and taking another reading, or you could load the roll of 400ISO film. Since the latter is twice as sensitive as 200ISO, your flash meter would show f/8, the f/stop you'd prefer to use, which is one stop smaller than f/5.6.
This is a lot to absorb and make sense of. Arrive early! Set up and test early! Make adjustments early!
July 10, 2003
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Dede Carver |
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Can you imagine what this picture could have turned out like had I just shown up and taken the picture? SCAREY!!
I am so glad I asked and I am SO thankful someone as knowledgable and as kind as you answered. Thanks! Wish me luck. I'll upload the picture after I get it back. DeDe
July 11, 2003
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Dede Carver |
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I was wondering if this one itty bitty minor detail would make a lot of difference in the quality of the picture? I got the lights to sink exactly as you said. I was so excited!
Everything went pretty well. About 100 people. I am a little nervous about the grouping. BUT.........It's a blur, I cant remember if I EVER adjusted the camera to match the light reading. Big problem I'm guessing. Man I hope I just forgot that I really did do it. Working with a bunch of drunk 47 year olds is a bit of a challenge. I'll upload the picture no matter what so you can critique it. What a learning experience this has been. DeDe
July 12, 2003
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