 Danea Burleson |
Photos in a magazine? Not sure if this is the correct forum but here goes... This morning I was contacted by the editor of a German baby magazine. She had seen some of my photos on my blog and was requesting them for an upcoming article. This is a first for me and I know nothing about this sort of thing so any advice would be great. I just now wrote her back stating I was interested so I don't have any details besides her saying that my photos would be credited to me and a possible advertisement for my photography or something like that. I don't have a business yet but that is my goal. Does one usually get paid for this sort of thing? What should I be careful of or watch for? Thanks!
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
yes people usually get paid. You should be careful that they don't go ahead and lift your photo, and that you don't let them use your photo just for credit. They want to offer "possible" ad space for your photography, but I wonder if they wouldn't even want to pay you the amount they would sale ad space for.
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Jerry Frazier |
you probably should start around $10k. if they are thinking less, they can screw off. otoh, if they are offerring free advertising, and it is a mag that has a readership that would purchase your services, not some random magazine (for instance, if you shoot weddings, and it's a bridal mag, that would be perfect. but, if you shoot weddings, and it's home and garden, screw it, it's worthless to you to advertise in there). so, it depends. I would trade image use (one time) for an ad. but, the mag would have to be appropriate for my services otherwise it's a waste of my time. if it is not a mag that is not your target market for your service, then you just charge full price for use, which is very expensive. keep in mind: I bet this mag knows what it costs to license images. they are preying on people who don't know better these days and getting away with murder. it is not sustainable to license your images for cheap. it might seem fun, but credit-scmedit. I have yet to have a by-line somewhere amount to anything at all EVER.
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Danea Burleson |
Gregory, thanks for your advice. Jerry, 10k for a few photos for an article. Really? Seems like a lot but as I said I have no clue. My goal is to start a photography business based around children and families, so the magazine is perfect BUT it's in Germany, I am here in the US so advertising may be futile? Plus I haven't actually started one(Business) and hadn't planned on it for another 6 months to a year. I don't know how many photos she wants there are 5 posted in the blog entry she referred to. So should I just set a per image price? Also what does this mean(pardon my ignorance) "I have yet to have a by-line somewhere amount to anything at all EVER."
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Jerry Frazier |
email me with the circulation number of this magazine (how many subscribers) and I will give you a range for this type of thing. images to accompany a story might be less, maybe $500 each or something. but, send me the info, and I can tell you what the going rate is for this. a by-line is credit. I have never ever had business from credit in a mag, or on someone's website or anything. it's just stupid. no one is flipping through a magazine, sees an image, and says, I wonder who took that picture, then goes through the pain of figuring out how to find their website, looks through, and then hires you for something. I mean, maybe it's happened to mark, I don't know (LOL). all I am saying is credit is lame. I want money. I want credit too, but I want the money. I wont take a credit as payment. i'll take both the payment for use, and the credit or by-line with the image.
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David Van Camp |
10K for a few stock pics? Are we talking US dollars here??? Even $500US ea sounds rather high to me for single use license of stock shots. They can go to a micro stock agency & get them for much much cheaper!! Given that they contacted you, my guess is they have a very low circulation. Going with what Gregory said, I'd find out the value of the ad space they are offering and ask for that amount of money (unless it's unreasonably very low value or you think the ad has value to you) & negotiate from there.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
It can be 10k because you need to consider size of the photo, where they put the photo in the magazine, and how big their print volume is. Plus how many countries. And yes they can go to microstock. And they can pay you a dollar(or less), and use your picture 100,000 times over. Sound fair?
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Raymond H. Kemp |
Not nowhere near likely at all for a German Baby magazine. The fact an editor saw the image on a blog tells you this publication is looking outside the normal stream of art work including their own photography contributors. If the circulation is around 50K you're looking at $500 - $750 for the cover shot at best and my guess is they are not looking to pay that, especially if they suggested a "barter" ad in exchange. Barter ads are not uncommon in the magazine industry particularly publications that readers can subscribe to for free by filling out a questionnaire. The key is the free mags get their ad rates up due to circulation numbers but money is tight to pay for contributing editorial content, artwork, etc. Forget the barter and ask them for their standard cover rate. You can always counter but my guess is they will pass and look for another baby shot in the gazillion baby photos that are already flooding Internet.
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Luca Diana |
Hi Danea, first of all congratulations. Second, don't listen to Jerry, you'll only lose your face and the business. $10,000 for a few photos (even if they were) 20 is a ridiculous amount of money to ask for a german baby magazine. Probably the circulation is quite slow (Germany only and a very specific market), so I'd say that you would be lucky if they paid you $50/photo. It doesn't matter because you are starting, and at this point having a credit line with your name is the most important thing because it gives you credibility as a photographer.
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Mark Feldstein |
While it's probably waaay too late Danea, I have to say I wouldn't listen to Luca but rather Jerry for a lot of reasons. First, if you go with what Luca is saying, you're selling yourself and your work short along with a lot of other photographers who actually do this type of work for a living (like me). Luca apparently doesn;t understand this particular aspect of the profession or the market or the techniques necessary to negotiate usage/fee agreements for magazine-stock work. Jerry, OTOH is absolutely right in his approach. You need to know the finished size of the shot in the publication, the circulation, whether they'll provide photo credit (which is pretty much useless in this business anyway but nice if you can get it), and if it ends up as a cover shot, that's worth a lot to the client. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be asking for it in the first place. Cover shots help sell magazines. Your work has a lot of value to a publication. It doesn't matter whether or not you're starting or a seasoned pro. IT HAS VALUE ! Selling it short for 50 bucks to an international publication IMO is ridiculous and sells you out cheap. For what? To get published probaboy without photo credit because the editor, long after the publication is out on the street, will probably tell you "oops, they forgot the credit". Moreover, those prices are the kind most often paid by local neighborhood advertiser newspapers these days. Know your work has value to photo buyers. Understand you shouldn't sell yourself or your work short and learn the business practices that apply to this type of work if you're going to run with the big(er) dogs. :>)) One final tip, is most editors or photo buyers, if they don't know you and/or your work yet, will try and low ball your usage fees. That's their job. Your job is to ask for $10,000 and negotiate from there.
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Luca Diana |
Mark, I don't even bother reading pass the first 4 lines of your post because you make too many assumptions and you come off as know-it-all. Tell me, how many times have you been published in Germany, or in Europe? I stand by my advice, which didn't say: give it away for free in case you misread.
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Danea Burleson |
I figure it's time for me to chime back in here. I first want to say I discussed this with Jerry outside this thread and he was very helpful! The request is for one photo to accompany an article. Since it was my first offer and after seeing a price range on an online calculator AND after taking Jerry's suggestion(revised after the knowledge of the request) I went a little low with $150. They counter offered at $120 and I did accept. The magazine is a German baby magazine called BABY & GESUNDHEIT and circulation is 250,000. They also have a website. Here's were I am at now and quite frankly a wee bit nervous as another site declared this a scam(I am not convince it is but here's why they felt it was). They felt that finding a photo on a blog is just not reasonable and thus only a scam artist would do this as editors hire only professionals to do photos. They said that once I said yes to using my photo, regardless of terms, they will copy the photo, and I will never hear from them again. Anyone have a similar experience of a photo request as mine? Right now I am waiting, the editor said they took my photo from my blog to use on the layout to see if it works with the other photos. She said they haven't accepted it yet but is pretty sure they will, and at the time of acceptance will make payment. I made it clear that they did not have permission to use the blog image(has my logo and is web formatted) but only had permission to use the original. She assured me that the original is the image they will use for the actual magazine if they decide to use the photo and that they will do everything legally. Oh and she also offered ad space along with payment and acknowledgment. So any opinions on the scam aspect? Did I undersell? She said it is the lead article. But she didn't mention is as a cover shot(and I can't image it would be.) LOL. Oh crap wait a minute...she said, after price was given(originally said to accompany an article) that it will be used "as front page and lead story (BabyLegs) on the page". I took that to mean front page inside, not cover am I wrong? Also nothing has been signed, just emails. I am so green about this all that I feel a little strange about all this going on. Eek!
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Already said it in the 2nd line of my first response. Mark may follow up with why you get photos copyrighted. Front page can mean web pages. For the magazine, I'm thinking it's the first photo, which is usually the biggest, of the article. Inside the magazine, not the cover, but maybe the size of a whole page. Now that you agreed on price, you noticed how the status of the photo has changed for them. I know that you feel some protection that it's a web sized image, but there's the story of the photo from flickr that was taken and used as an ad for virgin wireless in Australia. That was made into a poster sized ad at a bus stop awning. So a web sized photo isn't necessarily useless if you have available to you the kind of stuff that a company would have. More capabilities than just upsizing with a pc.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
This is a hope for the best prepare for the worst kind of situation. You protect yourself, but you also do it with basic faith that there's more people good for their word than not. It may very well work out. I don't have that much confidence after what you've said about the emails coming from the editor. But you're seeing why people go thru details about where a photo is used, how big it is. But don't feel like you're not alone however it works out. Everybody who can legitimately call themselves a photographer has gone through this at some point.
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Danea Burleson |
So Gregory, am I to understand correctly that you think they have taken my blog photo and I will never hear from them again(or at least that is what you suspect?). I have actually never thought about selling my images before so yes, this is a whole area that has never come up with me until now. She has said from the beginning ad space and credit. She never mentioned payment, I did. When I did mention payment her response was simply a counter offer and not one of shock or disappointment. I am hoping for a return email Monday or Tuesday in response to were things stand. If I don't hear back then I guess I was taken and I don't suspect there is much I can do being they are in Germany? What was it about her emails that don't give you much confidence?(Simply trying to get a better understanding and insight from all you pros)And why would the status of my photo change once a price is agreed on? Do you mean placement in the magazine or the waiting if it will be used? I do understand what you were saying about knowing all the information first though, regarding size, placement. Ect. Thanks guys for responding you are all being very helpful and I really appreciate it!
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Unless I misunderstood you, did the picture get upgraded, so to speak, from just an accompanying photo to a lead photo after you agreed on price? Or the upgrade, and then you agreed on a price? To use a cover photo situation as example, if somebody asked to use a photo for an article and a price was agreed on, and then they suddenly want to put it on the cover, then suddenly that price for using the photo goes up just as quickly. That's one reason why I say I don't have that much confidence. Plus, it's just something you have to watch out for. I believe you when the check is cashed.
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Luca Diana |
I don't seem to find much out of the ordinary in this transaction. There are only a very few magazine (National Geographic on top) that will commission all their photos to photographers they know. Most magazines accept freelance submissions anywhere from 5% to 80% of the total photos used, with a good percentage also taken from stock photos. I think it's pretty nice that you got contacted, more and more publishers/editors are looking at new venues, like blogs, to find original photos. I think you still have room to contract the price of your photo, you could tell them that you agree to their price as long as the photo is used for sizes no larger than 1/6th of the page or so and that the price for a full or half page size will have to be agreed by both parties. You want to sound as professional as possible, as if you've done this before, so that they won't try to undersell you and will keep you in mind next time they need similar photos. It also helps to send a contact sheet (Photoshop has an automated mode to create this) with similar photos, they might decide to buy more than one. Rob Sheppard has a 4-week course here on getting published.
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Danea Burleson |
Ok, sorry, I got ya now. As far as I know it is still just an accompanying photo as I was not told it was a main photo, hence her stating they wanted to see if it went well with the other photos, but to be honest I am not sure nor do I know the exact size. Like you I 'll believe it when the check is cashed also. But I'm still crossing my fingers. ;) Luca, thanks for your responses. I did actually tell her that I would like them to keep me in mind for future publications, but I guess we'll see what happens with this first.
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Mark Feldstein |
Hey Luca !!! You're the one who said "don't listen to Jerry", and I think that pretty much assumes that you're the one who claiming to know it it all. Maybe if you kept reading my advice, you could have pointed out exactly where I was wrong in your worldly experience? And to answer your question, apparently a lot more than you have but I don't negotiate deals with text and photos. JUST photos which IS what Danea is doing. You don't suppose THAT makes a difference in the fees do you? And imagine, you're working on not one but TWO articles WITH photos for ONE MAJOR outdoor publication. Let me guess: "Better Latrines and Gardens"? Oh and Luca, btw, National Geographic does NOT operate the way you claim. Relax Luca. You just don't understand their editorial guidelines. Read them again for clarity. Now, Danea getting back to what you were saying, as far as the magazine "taking" the photo off your blog without contacting you first and asking permission, THAT's unprofessional and using that photo in a dummy layout doesn't pass the smell test. I should think as a signatory to the copyright treatises they would know better. It further seems that if you can't agree on a price at this point and they've included it in the layout, that so far, based on what you've said, they may even owe you for infringement. And once you agree to let them publish you have to take it off the market as a non-published photo. In effect, you're selling first European or perhaps worldwide rights to publish that particular shot. Thereafter, the uniqueness of that photo in terms of value, decreases once it's been published. If they release it without publishing it, then it goes back up. Oh and Danea, don't ever try to sandbag a publication editor or photo buyer into believing you've got more experience at this than you actually have. That's always a bad idea. You don't think they know? Most reputable publications appreciate candor. I recommend that you simply tell them you're new at this but you're getting advice from a couple of friends in the biz. They'll understand and likely, as I said, probably already know. Your credibility is really important in this field.
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Luca Diana |
> "Better Latrines and Gardens"? HAHAHAHA. YOU ARE SO INTELLIGENT AND FUNNY. DID YOU PAY COMEDY COURSES WITH THE MONEY YOU MADE FROM SELLING ARTICLES? You were born so important that publications jumped at you and begged you to sell them stuff at whatever price you wanted, yes that's exactly how the industry works... in your dreams. I said "Don't listen to Jerry" because it would be just ridiculous to ask $10,000 for a photo. Even the geographic pays less than that for a cover most of the time. But of course you know that because you sell so many cover shots to them. And who are you now? The defender of the lost causes? I want to see Danea succeed but it won't happen with your brutal tactics.
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Luca Diana |
>You just don't understand their >editorial guidelines An as far as this claim of yours goes, how many articles have you had published in Europe? Because that's where Germany is, you know? I'm from Europe and I have been published quite a bit there.
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Mark Feldstein |
So, let me get this straight: Exactly What did I say, in between your rants and raves, that's incorrect as far as the industry goes? Brutal tactics? For example....what? And no, I can see that you don't understand NG editorial submission guidelines. And you, of course, were mentored by whom and at what publications when? Why do you persist in basing your standards and anecdotes (somewhat bitterly I might add) on one publication at the National Geographic Society? Luca, hurling baseless epithets and misbegotten accusations at me ain't going to make your point other than the fact that your inadvertent one that clearly you're merely a legend in your own mind. Thanks for sharing your POV though. I'm sure we all appreciate your incredible insight from the perspective of what we call here in the U.S., a "wannabee". Which is ok, of course. Oh, and btw, I do have shoots that come with a cover and a minimum and (sic) HAHAHAHA is not one word. It's "HA HA HA HA" four separate words. Oh, and aside from when I was born, I can safely say that in all likelihood I have socks older than you. Now can we please move on? If Danea gets a book called "Photographers Market" published by Writers Digest Press, it would give her some general background on the magazine publishing industry. Join a couple of associations at some point like NPPA or ASMP.org and read their stuff, attend local meetings and learn from the experience of other members who do this kind of work on a daily basis. In fact Danea, understand that most of us spend 80 per cent of our time or so, dealing with business issues like fee agreements and only 20 per cent actually shooting. But I'm pretty sure that Luca disagrees with that too because it's probably not how they do things where he lives. ;>)
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Danea Burleson |
Hey guys, remember me? LOL, just kidding. Ok, so to address Mark. I am not sure if I was clear or not, but the editor contacted me first asking permission to publish my photo, which would accompany others in an article. So as far as I am aware they never took anything off my blog until later. The photo is of my son wearing a product called babylegs and they are running an article on them. It wasn't until after a fee was agreed upon that she said they are using the blog image beside the other photos to see if it will work. This did not sit right with me so I made it clear that the blog image was NOT the image I was giving permission to use, to which she said they would absolutely use the original in the actual article. Now I wait, to see if it's a go. I have not yet been paid the agreed upon fee of the image. As for being professional. I have not pretended to be someone I am not so no worries there. I have been professional in my dealings with them however but they are aware that I am new to this, I just hope they don't try and take advantage of that which I was warned can be common. Thanks for the name of the book I will check that out. But I would also like to add that I have never thought about or looked into selling my work to magazines. This is something that I was approached with and most likely a one time thing, however it's peaked my curiosity so maybe it will be something I should look more into. ;) I guess if I don't hear back from them I need to figure out how to get a copy to see if they stole my image in the end. Ha! Anyone from Germany? :p
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Mark Feldstein |
Hi Danea. I got it more clearly now. It doesn't sound like they did anything wrong, really. Ask them for a few hundred bucks then let them wangle it downward to not less than say $100 bucks plus photo credit. See if you can communicate with the editor or art directors to pick up a future small assignment or more of kids (perhaps yours). Ask them for a publication/press date and to kindly send you a couple of complete copies and a bunch of tear sheets. They generally do that as a matter of courtesy. Also, toward getting an assignment or two, ask them to also send you a "media kit" that will give you an idea of how much they charge for advertising space, what they look for and an editorial schedule so you may submit stock work for their consideration to go with that schedule on an XYZ deadline. Who knows? You might get some actual work with them. Worth a try and this seems like a good opportunity. But you should make sure you have what's called a " stock delivery memorandum" that just offers basic language on usage and blanks to fill in to help you cover your bases on various standard items in the industry (even in Europe). ASMP.org sells business practice guides for photographers with forms that can be customized. BTW, a friend of mine with Time Mag made an interesting point one day recently. He told me that increasingly more editors in Europe prefer to work with U.S. based photographers whereas U.S. based editors are showing preference for European based photographers. Go figure. Maybe they get junkets to go visit and do location shoots although I can't understand who would want to visit this country right about now.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
This might be the free magazines that you see by the front door in grocery store chains. So with that you would definitely not get a general market value for a subscribers magazine. They depend heavily on people just wanting photo credit. Which is probably why they're looking through blogs.(one reason at least) But anyway. So I'm clear now that they haven't said one thing and done another. So now you stay in contact with them. Look around their website and see if in fact they are a free magazine. The previous offer of ad space is something those kind of publications always offer. But it's good to always be skeptical anyway.
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Susan M. Carter |
"I can't understand who would want to visit this country right about now." Are you kidding? With the dollar so weak, the U.S. is a European bargain shopper's paradise right now. The local news just aired a story about all the foreign visitors to Washington D.C. buying up designer jeans and shoes. According to this story, even visitors from China find shopping here cheap.
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Luca Diana |
Mark, obviously you have a reading and understanding problem, as well as being the one who launches attacks and plays the victim. Which has been confirmed by other members who sent me private emails about you. Not sure what you are here for, but you're definitely NOT a writer nor a photographer (pressing the shutter does not make you a photographer). No serious magazine would buy your below-average photos, you don't even take the time to clean them up from dust before putting in your website. You're just a poser who is starving for attention and I'm done giving you anymore attention. People here are smart enough to see you for who you are. Susan, you are right. I live in Jackson Hole now and this year we saw a huge increase in tourism from Europe, especially France and the U.K., but also from China and S. Korea. Danea, sorry if I contributed to degenerate your interesting post. I never suggest it to lie about who you are, I'm definitely opposed to creating a "fake resume" for the sake of getting published. I just said that you want to sound professional because editors are likely not to accept your work if you don't, but I'm sure you do. I wish you the best of luck getting that first photo published and may that be the first of many. :)
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Mark Feldstein |
Hey Luca, I've gotten quite a few e-mails about you as well. LOL !!! And while you're at it, read my client list at my website and weep accordingly. Jackson 'Hole' eh? Now THAT's the first thing you've said that makes sense. How appropriate. M.
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Luca Diana |
What are you, 12 year old?
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Danea Burleson |
Update: She just responded, they ARE using my photo and she send a pdf file of the page, it is beside product.(It looks great, it's my baby boy...hehehe) Before I respond I was hoping for a wee bit more advice...geez I know, take, take, take...haha.
Also, although I asked in the beginning what sort of contract they needed as I was unsure, nothing has been addressed (besides me stating in an email where they can use my image). Is this something that needs to be addressed? Thanks so much everyone for your help! Oh and Mark I will definitely be taking your advice on asking for tear sheets press release, editorial schedule, etc... And last, how come no ones sending ME and juicy emails? LMBO!
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