 Robert A. Staub, Jr |
Fees I have been honing my "art" of live performance photography, and now I am looking into approaching an up and coming band as their photographer and a new local venue owner as his "in house" photographer. Beyond approaching them, showing my work and asking for the opportunity, what do I propose for fees? If there is anyone here who has direct experience and can share their fee structure, I would appreciate it. Thanks
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Mark Feldstein |
Well Bob, "live performance" work is only one segment of entertainment photography and pricing requires some degree of sophistication, knowledge, planning and business sense. So, I strongly recommend that you join, pay dues for, and attend local chapter meetings of a professional association like ASMP.org; Advertising Photographers of America, or even NPPA.org (national assoc. of Press Photographers) and see what our members charge for this type of work unless of course you want to give your services away which is done quite often, much to the detriment of the person creating the work. ;>) You should know going into this however, that there are a multitude of factors to consider including the press run, coexisting publication rights, size of the finished image, usage rights for individuals in the group; time spent doing the work and pre and post-production meetings with art directors, etc.; black and white or color, whether you need stylists and / or make-up talent, among a myriad of other factors. Oh, and get a subscription to Photo District News. Remember that if you're going to run with the big dogs, you gotta get off the porch. :>)
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Robert A. Staub, Jr |
Thanks Mark! I will definitely look into the associations and the Photo District News.
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Jerry Frazier |
Best of luck with this. Mark is on the money. But, bands wont pay you for that. If they are signed, their financial backers will get their own photographer for these purposes. They might hire you, but not likely. If you have the time, just do it for fun and forget about fees. You wont get them.
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Mark Feldstein |
Jerry is also right on BUT if you do it for free, get a signed agreement that says IF they use the work for any type of publicity or publication, that their backer will agree to pay you XYZ for what the work gets used for. I don't ever recommend doing this type of work on a contingency basis. I think that cheapens the profession and devalues the work professionals do. Afterall, if the band you're shooting wouldn't be inclined to play a commercial event for free, why should you be compelled to shoot them for free other than, as Jerry said, for the fun of it. My point here is, Robert, that there really can be a lot of work involved and after awhile, this begins to feel more and more like work. Hence you should have a cut off date for freebies so that you can begin to charge accordingly.
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Robert A. Staub, Jr |
Thanks for the advice. So far I have been doing this for fun, and I will probably offer this band something along the lines of no charge coverage, with an allowance for future compensaiton based on use. As far as the venues are concerned, how do professionals charge for being a "in house" photographer? So far I figured my hourly rate as about $150 if I were to charge someone for a sitting. How does that translate into covering an event? I know htere are legal issues with regard to the act that is performing, but what if they ask for a fee structure? Would it be as simple as $150 per hour across an x hour concert? Thanks again!
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Mark Feldstein |
You can charge whatever you want versus whatever the traffic will bear. Nonetheless, this is another area where association membership would be helpful to you since you'd be able to discuss with other local members what they charge for similar work. That would accomplish two things at least: First, you wouldn't be undercutting them and second, you wouldn't be undercutting yourself. Additionally, you have to realize that there's much much more to this than an hourly fee. Again, for starters, it depends on the use, who's retained your services to do what and when, what city you're in, and what the contracts of the talent says about photos and usage, if any thing. Some commercial theaters use unionized labor for their crews (IBT (International Brotherhood of Teamsters or IATSE for technical jobs including electricians, lighting, carpenters, painters, costumers, etc. AND photographers. So depending on the theater or production company you're working with and whether they're a union crew, you may need to be union to photograph them. For I belong to both IBT and IATSE (International Ass'n of Theatrical Stage Employees) in Burbank. Both allow me to travel and shoot assignments from different union locals if required. Now, do your fees cover your dues and all the other associated expenses? In New York City for example, there are some theaters that won't allow a non-union photographer photograph a union troupe and union crews won't work with a non-union shooter. It depends on the theater and the local union business managers. Do some homework Robert. This can get to be somewhat complicated depending on where you live and what you're trying to photograph.
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Jerry Frazier |
If this is just rock band stuff, or whatever, and you're going in to one of those little clubs somewhere and you're going to photograph, you're just not going to get anything out of it. If there was money there, it would already be covered. If this is something else, then go for it. I've played in bands for many years professionally, and I can tell you that you either make it or you don't. If you make it and get signed, you have the record company pay for everything, and they own the rights to everything, so you don't have anything to do with who your photographer is. If they don't make it, every cent they earn at their day jobs goes toward equipment and recording and other stuff like that. Plus, every person they know has a digital camera and cam-corders, and they'll just ask them for myspace pics and such. I'm not being negative, just keeping it real. I still say just have fun and stop trying to make deals. I just don't think you'll get any where. It's way more complicated. If agents are calling you, now that's different. But, if agents were calling, you'd probably be ready for that, and you wouldn't be asking how much to charge.
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Jerry Frazier |
If you're going to charge, and if this isn't how I described above, charge a creative fee. Typically around $1,200 to $3,000 per day, DOE. Then, on top of that, you charge fees for usage of the images. The creative fee pales in comparison to the usage fees. This is why I'm jsut sayin... A gig like this, you'd be lookin' to make somewhere around $20k a gig. And, I'll bet you a year's salary that you have no intention of asking that kind of money right now. THAT, my friend, is why I am saying either play with the big dogs, or just call it a personal project; one or the other. Nickel and diming people will get you no where. If you wind up with an absolutely killer portfolio out of this, you can use that to send to agencies and start getting the real money. Then, all the time and energy was worth it. Or maybe, you could just publish a book about your 2 years doing this (and all the local blood, sweat, and tears, that goes into bands trying to make it). Turn it into a photojournalism project and get the back-story of the bands and members and their hard ships. It could be interesting and wind up way bigger and more important than little shoot fees. THINK BIG! and, ALWAYS THINK LONG-TERM.
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Robert A. Staub, Jr |
Thanks for all the repsonses. Great food for thought. I think that my best approach lies closer to doing this for pleasure, and if I happen to get some recognition that leads to "professional" assignments then that would be terrific. I just wanted to be prepared if someone asked the question, "what are your fees". IF someone is willing to pay, and I can cover some of my costs, then why not? In the end, my instinct and your replies tell me that the best I can hope for is a release that grants me full rights to publish and sell my shots.
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