 Sharon Day |
Is the contest stacked??? Or is there a "black list?" This is an honest question and I would like a reasonable answer. Please do not quote the tired old "art is subjective" nonsense. I am not asking why my sunflower didn't get an EFP over someone else's. I want to know why some members have 28 to 31 EFP buttons each and every month while some of us are limited to maybe 5 in a good month. Note also that I am not asking why some members win every single month. This question is not about winning. I am simply asking why a large number of perfectly decent shots can't even get an EFP. Thanks!
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Colleen Farrell |
If we had an answer from BP about whether the EFPs were indeed selected from the thumbnail images, that would explain a lot, I think. Because a lot of photos stand out when they're that small, but equally good ones might not. I've written to BP and asked for more details about the EFP process, but I didn't receive a response.
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Sharon Day |
Colleen, I thought of asking in an email then thought I recalled someone said they didn't get a response to questions regarding the EFPs so decided to take the more direct approach. They can ignore the Q&A just as thoroughly, but at least the question is out in the open.
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Tonya R. Boles |
I'd love to know more. :)
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Nobu Nagase |
I have always thought there is a White List, and I am not on it...
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Sharon Day |
LOL Nobi! I am sorry to hear you're not on the "white list" though :o).
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Erika Haight |
My question is this... I recently deleted a whole bunch of EP's off of my gallery on accident... So, wiping back my tears and grabbing myself by the bootstraps I went ahead and re-entered most of them this month!.... Now... If they were good enough to have received an EP the first time... why were they ignored the second time??? I have entered every day this month and have only received 5 EP's :0**( I know the judges at BP must have a heavy work load... but there has to be a better way!!! ~ erika haight
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Daniella Puente |
Is really dificult to say how is the EPS works, as you said some photos posted for 1st time have nothing but did on the 2nd oportunity. I think this is simply for the great number of photos and some are missing sometimes! I don´t think judges choose the photos on the thumbnails, that´s crazy (sometimes you open a fabulous small image and turns terrific in large size) sorry but that happens a lot! About the list W & B can't say (would be very unfair) maybe december was a very busy month to everyone????? LOL
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Diane Dupuis |
Hey Sharon - sorry to say - and you told me not to - but "art IS subjective"... I've seen this at my camera club alot. Show the pic to 10 different people - and you'll get 10 different reactions. If only one person was looking through efp's each and every day and each and every month - then you'd see a pattern of "likes" and "dislikes". I don't believe that is the case - so if there are 5 people looking at EFP's then you'll get 5 different types of "favorites" or "picks"... That's just the way it is. Now - what I don't understand is that I did way better with my 3 and 5 megapixel point and shoots then I've been doing with my DSLR... I know I've improved - and spent alot on new equipment and courses, books and workshops - and have practiced ALOT - but alas - I'm doing way worse in this contest (and others btw!) in this past year with my new equipment. I don't know how this happened - but I have a theory - and actually went out and bought another point and shoot and we'll see if I prove my theory if any of my efp's make it to finalist... I haven't had one since April! Anyhow, it's still just a free on-line photography contest and we have to take it light. No use getting too hyped up about it... Once upon a time that used to be me but I'm over it now... Erika - I've re-submitted finalists that didn't even make EFP... Go figure... But again - I think it just has to do with who is doing the judging that day or month and what they like or dislike... Sharon - you continue to be a fantastic photographer who I admire and look up to for inspiration! Keep up the stock work and keep your head held high!
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Sharon Day |
"Sharon - you continue to be a fantastic photographer who I admire and look up to for inspiration! Keep up the stock work and keep your head held high!" Thanks, Diane! I've seen a distinct improvement in your work since going DSLR. I'll be interested to see how your theory pans out. At one time I thought the judging was biased towards DSLR rather than P&S cameras.
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Nobu Nagase |
Interesting thread you started, Sharon... I'm almost sure that not many others have the courage to start a thread like this and you can do it in the very light manner. But, the responses are going to be very predictable and certainly mine is... I could have ignored it, but I just thought I will blow in a bit of fresh air, ... LOL.
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Colleen Farrell |
My feeling is that there are indeed different "editors," because of the volume of entries. I'm guessing that the editors change each month. That would explain why Erika's 2nd submission of EFP photos didn't get an EFP the 2nd time.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
"I'm almost sure that not many others have the courage to start a thread like this..." Search through past threads may tell you different.
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher  Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
I don't know if there's a list, but I sure do notice that certain people can put up just about anything and get an EFP and others who are just as good in the same category don't get them. If they aren't seeing the names, how could this happen? I'm going to use the flower category for example, because there are so many great shots in that category each month, but if you look at the finalists, it's the same ones most of the time. I don't think this is a coincidence. But hey, I've been wrong once or twice. LOL
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Bob Cammarata |
We've all submitted some really great photos (at least to US) that were overlooked. Personally, I don't lose any sleep over it. I rarely post more that 8 to 10 photos each month and don't really care if they advance in the contest. My pleasure comes from sharing what I’ve experienced and reading and responding to the comments some of my photos generate (...and I try to respond to each one). We visit here to trade experiences and knowledge with folks of similar interests. I know I've gotten better in recent years and I've seen many others grow too. For that, we should be grateful because competition breeds determination. It makes us better and stronger in whatever field we choose to embrace. Also, with competition comes humility. We must accept that we cannot be winners every time. It might be a nice addition to this thread for those who feel slighted in the contest to post a photo or two here and let others critique it objectively. I’ve seen this done before and some interesting observations were realized. (Someone pointed out an obvious technical flaw on one of my photos that I hadn’t even noticed!)
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Ken Austin |
This site is a for profit site. Eventually, this site profit gets saturated and they have to look for new ways to bring in money. People who get the most "wow, great photos" seem to get more EFP's. Same with POTD. They seem to pad the gallery of those people since they are popular. The contest is only a ways to the means, and thats a paycheck for BP. Every time you get an EFP, its another way for BP to use your photos as draw. It's not a reward for you, it's business for them. Standard OPS. When the owner starts making phone calls to members, you have to wonder. I know people that have judges numbers so they can see who it is voting (given to them by staff members.) I know some that have links they shouldn't (given to them by staff.) I know others that have such an inside track on the behind the scenes going ons, (all from staff members.) I have never thought that was right, there is definately a fine line that was crossed. When you used to be able to see the rounds, that was not public knowledge, it was something the people that had been here a while passed around to their friends. The rest of the site was unaware it was going on. There is still quite a bit of that going on, all I can say is... shame on you.
Sharon, if everything is on the up and up, like is being assumed by BP not chiming in on anything, they there is no way they should be upset at the question. We are all adults I would think. Now, go enjoy your day!
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KV Day |
I'm sorry there are so many bad feelings going on.
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KV Day |
Well, crap lol. Sorry Ken, I was entering his photo for him when I responed to the post. That was me, not Ken. Sorry all and to Ken.
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Sharon Day |
There are some good, well thought out responses and I appreciate everyone's opinion. Thanks! The thing I would like to stress is I'm not asking why I don't win anymore. I am only asking why my photos aren't making it to the next round. I don't think it has everything to do with technical merit, at least not in the first round. Even if technical merit is the sole criteria in photos moving up to the next round I do try to enter sharp, well exposed photos of subjects I have found appeal to the judges. I studied the contest hours at a time when I first started. I've been right up front about the fact I'm all about winning, AND I shoot and enter with the contest in mind. I believe a few more than 5 out of 22 photos should have been noticed this past month. I may not be "popular" anymore and this question will no doubt ruffle some feathers (too bad), but I am not the only one wondering why only a few entries are making EFP now when some are getting them nearly every day of the month. Sorry folks, but I'm not buying the "art is subjective" argument for what is basically the first round of the contest. That is a good argument for winners, but for EFP, no. Ken Austin, you have some really good points. None of which I had thought of so I appreciate you sharing. I think ultimately you are right. Bob, I appreciate your input as well. I am grateful for what I have learned here. BP has a lot to offer and my photography has much improved since joining the site. Gregory, you know me too well ;). For those that would like to come completely unraveled over this thread, try to keep in mind you would be wondering the same thing too if you suddenly weren't getting EFP nearly every day :o).
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
Yes, they would!
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Sharon Day |
"I'm sorry there are so many bad feelings going on." Vicki, there are no "bad" feelings going on on my part. I'm sure some have bad feelings at me for asking this question, and I'm sorry about that too, but just because some don't like it doesn't change the reason behind the question.
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- Shannon Heryet Contact Shannon Heryet Shannon Heryet's Gallery |
I would like to watch this thread, but I also would like to ask a question? As a beginner, when a submitted photo receives a bunch of positive comments, wouldn't you expect it to get an EFP? Also is there somewhere you can post for critique on your photos? I really just want to learn more, but getting a few EFP's always makes my day. But having someone pick my photo as a Favorite is even better. Thanks Shannon
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
What's the payoff for giving the same people awards? If the motive is to make money, wouldn't that mean you give out awards to an many different people as you can?
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Sharon Day |
Shannon, I don't think the people selecting the photos for EFP look at comments but I could be wrong. You should be able to get a critique on a photo if after you enter it you post a comment asking for critique and in the "category" selection make sure you select "constructive critique". I think that's how that works. Don't ask if you don't have a thick skin. People can be a little unkind and not very helpful, but there are some that genuinely try to help.
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Sharon Day |
Gregory, do you follow the contest at all? Why do you think the same names pop up each month?
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Repeat winners take good photos? They spread out their subjects? They don't see what won last time and duplicate it? Now, answer my question.
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Sharon Day |
What's the question? LOL Obviously you look at the winners. I always wondered if you ever peeked at them. I can't say I've ever seen you enter.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
You're avoiding.
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Sharon Day |
No I'm not, ask it again and I promise to answer. You forget you're dealing with an old woman LOL.
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Colleen Farrell |
Comments have nothing to do with the contest. Basically, if you comment on somebody else's photo in a positive way, they will comment on yours in the same manner. Now, if you get a lot of positive comments from people whose photos you've *never* commented on, it's more likely there's something outstanding that would catch a judge's eye. But it's not a guarantee of an EFP.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
What's the payoff for giving the same people awards? If the motive is to make money, wouldn't that mean you give out awards to an many different people as you can?
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Sharon Day |
"What's the payoff for giving the same people awards? If the motive is to make money, wouldn't that mean you give out awards to an many different people as you can?" If this is the question you're asking then my answer would be it makes more sense to spread it out. At least it does to me.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
"Obviously you look at the winners. I always wondered if you ever peeked at them. I can't say I've ever seen you enter." When a cd hangs up sometimes you see if there's a scratch, so I've looked thru winners and what gets entered before, since this is such a reoccurring topic. Most of the winners(including the efp) I can see something that would make it get chosen. Even some of the cheesy baby pictures, because that's just something that a large number of people like. Even though most I wouldn't pick at all. And it's always sounded like stage mothers complaining about their daughters not getting the part. And I've never entered a contest. Never looked for the validation.
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Richard Lynch |
With 25,000+ entries a month, the competition is great and it is simply an achievement to be recognized in any stage of the event. As an instructor, from what I know of the contest mechanism, it is quite fair and reflects the opinion of the judges. What may raise your chances of winning are: entering as many times as possible with your best images, studying the winners (not to duplicate, but to learn from them), and working to enhance what you do (not just enhance digitally, but your technique and expertise with photography as an art). You'll find those that get recognized often do just that. I hope that helps! Richard Lynch
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Sharon Day |
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KV Day |
It's never been brought up before but is there a chance they have decided to skip a round in the judging hence the lesser EFPs? First round used to get about 50% tossed but now its is much much greater a number.
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Sharon Day |
"And I've never entered a contest. Never looked for the validation." That's one way of looking at it, Gregory. I never considered it as validation. I'll have to do a more indepth self evaluation LOL. You may be right though. If anyone isn't seeking validation why get upset when the EFP buttons are elusive? I guess the answer would be because maybe I have an over inflated opinion of my work and find it as good as what is getting EFP???
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Colleen Farrell |
Gregory, just curious--why do you care about what other people think of the contest, if you're not interested in it yourself?
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
A better question would be why do I get into discussions about it. And that can be a few reasons ranging from I felt like it, I love photography, I think I may have an answer or point of view that's relevant, and(yes you heard it) helpful. I don't have to care about what people here take pictures of, but I'll answer a question if I want to. I'll even spell out how to do something if I can. I don't care about Britney Spears or Lindsay Lohan, but I can get into a discussion about people using them to duck responsibility on there own lives, their kids lives, as well as race issues, gender issues, sexuality, celebrity worship, privacy. You know, depends on if I feel like it.
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Sharon Day |
"and(yes you heard it) helpful." Gregory gets in the doghouse a lot for his dry observations, but I can vouch for him being helpful. He's answered questions I have many times.
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
I used to think Gregory was mean and rude, but then I went and looked at his site and he seems to just have a prickly personality...maybe a bad choice of words there, but it seems as though he's pretty much the same all the time.
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Colleen Farrell |
Thanks for the response. I certainly agree you have a right to comment wherever you feel like it.
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Sharon Day |
"I certainly agree you have a right to comment wherever you feel like it." Not on some threads, Colleen LOL.
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Richard Lynch |
Sharon, I did get advice from a professor once that I think is appropriate -- it was about a time in my undergraduate studies when I was submitting fiction to literary magazines and bemoaning the fact that my work was so much better and that other inferior work was being selected. He said, simply: "Don't think about what other people are doing that you don't like unless you use it to make your own work better. Write something so good that they cannot refuse it." I think that you will see that all of the finalists in the contests are of very high quality. If you make images as good or better than those, and enter them, you will likely do well. If they fail, take another look, and see if there may be things you can improve, and perhaps try again. If you would like to know more about what I think of that shot, you can send me an email...but I will not venture a comment on how it should do in the contests, as that could indeed be considered a conspiracy. I don't claim to know the entire system, and probably said more than I should have already. I think that betterphoto recognizes the efforts of many, and it should be a challenging yet friendly event. I find it sad that people fight about it or try to make it into a point of contention. It is free, you can win things that are valuable, it should be a challenge not merely as you pitted against others, but as you producing the best work that you can. I wish you luck, and hope you continue in good spirits. Richard Lynch
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Colleen Farrell |
"Not on some threads, Colleen LOL." Oh yeah, I forgot. ;) LOL
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Sharon Day |
Richard, thank you for responding! I won't put you on the spot. I really do appreciate all the help you offer people who ask questions in this forum. I see you time and again responding to questions and I know everyone must appreciate it as well! It's always disappointing to have a month when no finalists materialize but I was more concerned my photos aren't even making it to the first round which didn't seem like unrealistic expectations on my part in view of my past successes with the contest. Your professor had a very good point and I will take that into consideration for future entries. Again, thank you for your patience and taking the time to comment!
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Marianne Fortin |
I felt the same way as Diane D. I had several finalists in 2006 and hardly any in 2007. I put it down to the fact that I had just changed to a DSLR and was experiencing a "learning curve". Then the EFPs were introduced and every other photo seemed to get one. Recently the EFPs have become less and less. I really think that this is due to volume and a decision by BP to reduce the number of EFPs so the judges don't have so many to wade through each month. As to why some are chosen and not others, I agree with Gregory (!!) that it would make sense to have as many different people win as possible.
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Joanne Kramer |
I've followed this thread. You want EFPs daily. I would like one now and then. Question? Are EFP only given on contest entries...or can they be given on simply photos in your gallery? Now I'm wondering if you need a "Premium Gallery" to be looked at. At times I feel Why am I still posting...no comments..no responses and I think I have some great photos! Richard, I've been a student of yours and I really think it's great to hear from you on this thread. I'm impressed!
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Colleen Farrell |
You don't need a premium gallery to get EFPs but you do have to enter the contest to get one. The EFPs represent the first round of the contest. If you don't get comments on your photos, it's because you aren't commenting on other people's photos. Visit some other galleries and make comments and most people will visit yours and do the same! :)
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Sharon Day |
Joanne, Colleen is pretty much right about commenting. It's a community sharing thing. I don't get many comments either but when I used to spend a couple of hours a day commenting I had quite a few. It's just how the system works. In all honesty I get more comments than I deserve. After a couple of years of commenting so much I just finally burned out then got busy with other things so I'm quite happy with just a few comments if/when someone sees something they appreciate.
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Joanne Kramer |
Thank you Sharon and Colleen. I like to watch the new arrivals which don't have comments and be the "first" to make a comment....then watch to see if others agree. After a photo has umpteen accolades I'm not as apt to make a comment.
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Sharon Day |
Joanne, what I really like to do when I'm in the mood to comment is to just browse the entries and comment only on what catches my eye. I'm afraid when I do that it's pretty limiting because scenic landscapes are the only kinds of pictures I really enjoy. Some days I feel guilty for neglecting friends and just go visit galleries but I don't do anything on a regular basis anymore.
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wildlifetrailphotography.com - Donald R. Curry Contact Donald R. Curry Donald R. Curry's Gallery |
Sharon, I have admired your photos on here since I started in BP. Your photos are wonderful and you have many winners, finalists and EFPs. I get a few EFPs each month, but I have never been a finalist or winner. Just as you have done, I have looked at the winners and wondered why my photo didn't make it. It can be very discouraging. I recently had a BP Pro Critique on 8 of my best photos. That left me, for a little while, even more discouraged. But, ironically the photos I submitted for the critique that receive less than a positive review have been my best sellers. So, I don't know the answer. I know I have a passion for photography and I won't allow not winning on BP to change that passion one bit.
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Sharon Day |
Donald, thank you for the kind words! I have to confess I immediately went to have a looksee at your website and you have wonderful scenics! I enjoy them whole heartedly! Keep up the good work! Honestly, I do know you don't have to get medals to enjoy your own photography and for others to enjoy it as well! I like what Gregory posted earlier in this thread when I ask him if he ever entered the contest and he said no, he didn't need the validation. Sage words IMHO.
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Penny Haviland |
I have enjoyed your work very much Sharon. I'm guilty of not leaving many comments as time is limited so I don't expect many in return. I do agree that something is different about the way entries are being judged. There is one image I've entered a couple of time thinking if I improved the cropping or color it might get a EFP but I haven't received one in the last couple of months on anything I enter. Thing is I feel I've stepped up the game here and still nothing. Wish I knew what's going on as well. It would just be nice to have a tiny bite of encouragement from the judges once in a while. They are the experts after all and if they say an image deserves an EFP, we are charged up for the day anyway. Some days need a little jump start.
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Richard Lynch |
I see many recognitions in the galleries, and lots of great work! keep at it and it will likely be rewarded. The biggest reward is self-satisfaction though it is nice to be recognized elsewhere and by piers. Sharon, I did make a brief comment on your image...I hope that helps! Richard
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Sharon Day |
Thank you, Richard! I really appreciate you taking the time. I think I'll reshoot that one and try again later. It does indeed take a steady hand. I shot it at least 10 times before getting one that came close to working.
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Jane M |
I'm sure you're not looking for validation Sharon, though with something with such a large subjective component as photography it is always nice to see if others agree with you on what you consider a good image. I feel I can be fairly objective with my own images now but to start with their probably was a degree of seeking validation in entering the contest. The competition certainly has flaws, with the size of it it is almost bound to. My last first place was entered several times without getting an editor's pick, so that gives some indication that it is not foolproof. Having said that the good images seem to come through in the end and if it really was foolproof we all might get a bit bored with the same excellent photographers sweeping the places month after month. I think a little bit of imperfection in the contest judging adds to the drama and interest month to month as demonstrated by this thread :)
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Susan M. Smith |
This has been an interesting thread to read but also, I've read some fabulous advice! So, thank you to the contributors. I don't really have anything to add, just bookmarking the thread :)
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Colleen Farrell |
As a beginning photographer, I have no problem saying I've looked for and received validation from the contest. But more than that, it's a fun way to keep challenging myself to regularly produce new images and seek creative ideas. Over this past year, I've gotten better and begun to make a few different kinds of photographs. These are ones I often like the best. They're also ones that tend not to get EFPs. :) In a couple of cases I've really scratched my head over it, but in others, I realize they just don't fit the BP style.
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Mick Burkey |
I realize photography contests and art in general is totally subjective, but I must say I’m a bit amazed that the recognized flaws, lack of consistency and appearance of less-than-stellar images in the judging system is so well accepted as to be thought of as part of the fun. I wonder if the same values and acceptance would work in other parts of people’s lives. “Yes, Mr. Jones, I know we said we had the best auto mechanics and that we replaced your battery with a good one, but isn’t not knowing whether your car will start in the morning part of the fun?” “Sorry you feel that way about our plumbers, Mrs. Smith, but isn’t it part of the wonderful mystery of bathrooms not knowing if you will have hot water or not?” I know photography and art contests are not plumbing and auto mechanics, and I may get some negative feedback for this, but I really expect more from a business that bills itself as having photo contests that are “the most fun, objective and prestigious photography contests on the Web” (this quote is from BP’s About Us page).
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lindsay king |
I found this thread very interesting, I have often wondered the same thing myself, and not just about my own work, but others as well. Sometimes I see contest enteries get picks that aren't nearly as nice as others who didn't get any recognition. My question however, being new to all this, is when are editors picks announced? When the contest winners are announced at the end of the month, or do they get picked as they are entered?
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Susan M. Smith |
Mick, thanks for the great laugh. I don't know of anyone, in the forums at least, that thinks of the "less than stellar images" as part of the fun. No, we are left scratching our heads, as I've heard many a time, wondering at how such things could happen in the course of BPs evaluation process (also, widely speculated upon). Not giving you grief, mind you, I enjoyed your comparisons :) For Lindsay, the EP's are awarded daily and they are usually about 2-3 days behind entries. There is a thread you can watch where members report EPs as they are awarded. At the least it will keep you on track and at the most, drive you a bit batty. But, the great member camaraderie is worth it :) Have fun....
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Mick Burkey |
Susan, glad you were able to see at least part was firmly tongue-in-cheek. Still, makes you think.
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lindsay king |
Susan, Thank you for the response :) I'll be checking often to the thread lol :)
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Susan M. Smith |
Lindsay, I'm not sure how new you are, but remember you have to enter in the contest to get an EP :) Oh, and if at first you don't succeed, resubmit in the next month. Good luck!
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Michael Skelton . |
Susan is right Lindsay , The game plan is resubmit resubmit resubmit. I never alter my photographs , Just resubmit them . The photo " Misty Morning" got a EP this month. It was the 7th time I resubmitted it in the last 13 months. Have faith in what you are doing ,if you believe its a good photo it will stand on its own merit. Or maybe they just got sick of me resubmitting and gave it a EP to get rid of me ;oP
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Thomas F. Andersen |
Through the quite lively 'cash contest' thread my attention was pointed to this thread. I simply cannot believe what I'm reading. This really is ludicrous! To open the thread by stating: "Is the contest stacked? Is there a black list?" only to then follow up with "please do not quote the tired old 'art is subjective' nonsense" is almost like saying don't respond to this thread unless you are the same boat as my conspiracy 'black list' theory! I'm with Bob Cammarate and Richard Lynch here. 1. I totally agree that we should be grateful what this monthly contest that BP is organizing totally free and with good prizes to be won! I also firmly believe that the contest can help many of us budding photographers to learn more about what good photography is. If you don't get placed one month, study some of the placed images, go out and shoot again with some new ideas in mind and re-submit. I have no doubt that this will lead to placements sooner or later and it's a great learning process. 2. On the topic of 'why did my image which is just as good as the next not receive an EFP' - well sorry Sharon - but photography is subjective and as much as you think that is nonsense it is a fact! Here is my view on this. Just as much as we are probably affected by our mood and state of mind when we MAKE the image, just as much are we probably affect by our mood and state of mind when we EDIT our images. How many of us haven't experienced liking an image today, only to think is a average tomorrow? The same thing applies to editors I'm sure. If you submit the same image in January and February, well an editor might like it in January, but overlook it in February. Secondly, I guess that the selection process also varies a bit from month to month, different people selecting in different categories etc. etc. Furthermore we are talking 30,000 to 40,000+ images here. You could probably submit the same image for twelve months in a row and it would probably still place, rate and edit differently each month. In continuation of this topic - and to respond to the comments from Donald on his pro critique comments - it is quite common that there can be a difference between an image from a compositional, design and creative stand point compared to an image that sells. These are two different things. Images that are licensed are usually licensed for very specific reasons and purposes, not always on its photographic and creative merits. 3. On the topic of 'bad feelings' I am with Vicki on this one. Sharon, you may not have bad feelings on your part, but clearly this thread is not very positive and encouraging for the good folks at BP who has taken on this massive task of organizing a 30,000 to 40,000+ entries image contest month after month, year after year. Of course you are in your good right ask the question (as much as I do think it's a ludicrous question and as much as I can appreciate why you wouldn't have received a direct reply to it from BP apart from Richard Lynch being kind enough to take some time to chime in with some construcive comments) but don't ask the question and then tell us what not to answer please! Specially when the answer that you don't want to hear is such an integral part of what this whole thread is about.
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lindsay king |
Thanks for the tip Susan & Michael! I wish my computer had a "resubmit" button lol :P
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JO ANN CLEVELAND |
Personally, if that is allowed on this thread, I totally agree with Thomas A.
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Sharon Day |
Thomas, with all due respect the question was not in reference to finalists and wins but to the FIRST ROUND which I am sure if we had a link to ALL the EFPs you would see that the first round is much less subjective than the judging for the finalists and winners. Well, you all have fun. I am done debating the thing. Time to move on to the next one ;). Anyone one want to start film vs. digital? LOL
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
I agree with Sharon. It's not the finals or winners we are arguing with, it's the FIRST round. If you look, you will see what we are talking about instead of biting heads off. I haven't looked at January, but December was quite scary at some of the stuff that was getting through at the expense of the good shots that weren't. And I don't mean mine.
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Kaye Burazin |
It seems to me that the subject matter and effects used are what draws attention from the judges. I have a entry that I left in my gallery that never even got an editors pick, but won a Grand prize in PhotoWork Shops yearly international contest in the lightly manipulated category. I won a quite expensive prize package including a Canon 30D and CS editing software package. It was my Ghost Rider image. There is no accounting for judging tastes and after a year here I have a handful of finalists (never a win) many tears shed and a lot of perseverance and I can now walk away saying..I am having fun and learning. And that's what's important.
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Thomas F. Andersen |
Sharon and Carolyn, unless I have misunderstood something this is also what I responded to i.e. it is my understanding that the 'EFP's are the Editor's First Pick's which makes the first round. However whether it is first picks, finalists or winners is really besides to my point here. I'm responding to the suggestion that a black list should exist and thereby that selections are preferential. I'm also aware that you are raising this as a general issue (not necessarily related to your own images as much as Sharon did put her own example up), but the bottomline is that I don't think BP operates like that and I strongly disagree with the suggestion you are making that they do. Carolyn, I'm not trying to bite anyone's heads off, but allow me to respond to something that I disagree with. The bottomline is that BP has to through 30,000 to 40,000 images each month and it's probably different people sharing the task from month to month, so of course there will be variations in selections. Kaye's example is just another good example of such variation, but it seems Kaye has taken this the positive way. Enough said already. You all have some truly great images in your galleries and I think the energy is better used on creating rather than debating - at least in the case of this thread. Kaye, contratulations on your winning image - what a great prize to win! I'm gonna go have a look at your gallery.
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Sharon Day |
Nice gallery, Thomas! I'm really surprised not to see more medals in there. I'm sure that will change soon!
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Thomas F. Andersen |
Ditto on the gallery Sharon - you've got some truly stunning images. I think we shared a class at one point too. I don't like what you are implying here at all, though, Sharon, and your remarks are totally incongruous, but I'm not a sucker for medals and if I get one I trust it's on the merits of the image. Over and out once and for all from me on this thread.
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Sharon Day |
Until the next one, Thomas!
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Denise McNickle |
Being new to BetterPhoto and fairly new photography, I almost got caught up in the hype of getting EFP and was getting discouraged when some people's galleries have almost all EFPs. Sometimes I wonder if the only photographs they put in their galleries are the ones with EFPs or current contest entries. I uploaded a lot of photographs to my galleries so I could get my galleries set up. I enter a few photographs in the contests but in comparison my gallery is quite empty of EFPs. That is okay because I have lots of photographs in my gallery, not just ones that get EFP. To me, getting an EFP is an accomplishment. It is inspiring to a newcomer to photography like me but reading all this is just as discouraging! I came here to learn, because I am trying to make a major career change at age 50. But, right now this seems more like a high school drama than a place to learn and share our love for photography.
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A. J. Perry |
Well, I'm so glad I accidently stumbled upon this rather intense discussion. And here all along I just thought perhaps that my images were just lousy! Certainly, at the least, just not good enough to garner the attention of the Editors. Silly me! Lousy or not, I still like making them and I've got a pretty inexpensive way of storing and displaying them. I originally joined this site almost 6 years ago but then suddenly had to abandon it for almost 5 of those years for personal reasons. I was finally able to return to this site just 2 months ago and lo and behold, my old images were still on here and my old membership was still valid. Although, I've since deleted them because what I thought was good back then, even garnering a generous amount of EP's and a Second Place win, was now quite embarrassing to see once again in the light of what is being expected of today's submissions. I have no doubt that personal biases play a role in the editorial process, that's just human nature. But just how much is no longer of any consequence to me. I'm just happy to have a really cheap way for showing off my stuff and WYSIWYG! A gentle POTB or an equally genuine "ATABOY" once in a while is enough to keep me going. But then again, that's just me.
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Sharon Day |
I said I was finished with this thread, but since it's a woman's perogative to change her mind I've decided to change my mind ;). Let's see now, I think the general consensus is I'm wrong a well as tense, arrogant, unbelievable, ungrateful, ludicrous and drama queen. I've been not too subtly told to shutup and after another few paragraphs I will do just that. As an explanation as to why I would start such a thread let me say I receive many emails a day regarding the contest. I suppose people see my medals and think I have it figured out. I have gotten emails from website owners (more than one) asking me what is wrong with their photos because they have purchased a website and would like to know why they can't place in the contest. What do I tell them? These people have finalist to first place quality photos displayed (my opinion). I don't know why they aren't placing or place only rarely. I have had potential course students (more than one) email me and ask if I think they could win if they would take a course. Not so much to improve their photogrpahy but because they felt spending some money at the site would improve their chances. Finally, the reason I started this thread is because I went in search of EFPs myself and found many truly inferior photos being moved to the next round. This is just plain a fact and those that want to argue it obviously haven't been looking. I have given this a great deal of thought and can not figure out why on earth a technically poor photo would be moved up in the contest. This IMHO has nothing to do with "subjectivity". One thing that's been pointed out several times is the contest is free and it's fun. This is so true if you don't take it seriously. From the day I found this site I LOVED it. I still enjoy it, but lately I've seen things about the judging that in the view of at least some members causes it to lose credibility. I find that sad, but as long as everyone is happy then there's nothing left to say. I thought the owner and staff of the site might want to know these things. If not then I apologize. Yes, I could have emailed them privately but several have told me they did and never received a response and I have no reason not to believe that. The Q&A doesn't usually go unnoticed or unanswered. Still, there are no hard feelings on my part. What does the 1988 hit song of Bobby McFerrin's say? "Don't worry, be happy!" I'm taking his advice and I'm outta here. (this thread only) LOL.
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Thomas F. Andersen |
I said it was over and out for me too, but in the days of equal rights between men and women I guess it's a man's prerogative to be allowed to change his mind too! Sharon, can I just say I love the fact that you are ending on a 'LOL'. Now, please just go make some photographs and I promise I will do the same. Alternatively, if the light is not good where you are then go take a look at Ronald F. Fischer's beautiful gallery and be sure to read the quote he has got in his gallery. That is without a doubt the best thing I have read today and indeed for quite a while! Here is the link: http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/gallery.php?memberID=125176 Like Orson Welles once said: "If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story."
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Thomas F. Andersen |
and I meant to put a little ;-) after that!
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Tony Sweet |
Well, the quick answer is that nothing at Betterphoto is "stacked." The competitions are all fair and based the subjective (note: Subjective) judgements of the instructors doing the judging. EPs are also subjective. There are a lot of truly great work out there and being involved in the Betterphoto community is one tremendous way to improve one's skills. My 2-cents: just keep working on improving and keep submitting work and let the chips fall where they may. Eventually, you'll get the satisfaction and recognition that comes with the relentless pursuit of excellence. And, please don't take this selections personally! "Picks" certainly aren't made on a personal basis. As an aside, In the professional world of image leasing and sales, it really doesn't matter who you are or even how famous you are. All that matters is how the work fills the very specific need of the publisher. Professionals submit work for consideration and then forget about it, moving on to the next project. Just keep shooting and keep uploading to BP for consideration, and avoid being discouraged. Persistence and determination are the two greatest assets in any pursuit!
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Christina C. Moore |
Hello, I posted this on the earlier thread and am posting it here to get more thoughts on this situation. After this post, I will probably never get an EP again, but as a BP consumer, I do have some concerns and I think that I am within my rights to express them. (However, having said Tony- you do have some valuable insights). I also have to admit from the get go that I am getting frustrated-- indeed, frustrated enough to close up shop here at BP and take down my gallery. The problem is that I rarely receive EPs anymore! Maybe this means that I am a bad photographer. Maybe this is something that I have just got to admit and that I should move on with my life (maybe taking up paper cutting or something). This is a crushing thought for me and it gives me stomache pains even to think about it, but there is the possibility that I am simply not good enough. However this being said (or ranted), in skimming through the editor's first picks yesterday I noticed 3 that were so bad in terms of focus and noise that I could not help but email the BP powers that B. I can deal with an image that I simply feel is mediocre-- that's just my opinion. However, these images were technically flawed. While I noticed these images were removed from the editor's first pick feature, they did not favor my question with the curtesy of a reply. This caused me to feel that perhaps there is some truth to someone's claim that the awarding of EPs can be based on commercial merits as well as on photographic merits (sorry if I offend anyone here-- but really please understand how upsetting this is for me to work hard and to not even get one EP over the course of a month). Because I have not gotten a single EP, this means that there is no chance that I can place in the contest, and so really much of the fun of this site has been wasted for me. I do not know how does one go from winning 1-2 finalists a month, to not even hitting the mark with a few EPs... I really think that I am getting better as a photographer, but yet BP is telling me that I am getting worse. The problem with this is that I have thought about entering the paid contest. However, I really do not think that I will do this until I am confident that my images are getting a fair shot (which I no longer think that they are). I do not want to waste my money, or pay for some hidden agenda. If what Ken says is true, than I might not even want to continue to be a member of BP. -Christina P.S. I am not saying that the EPs are generally bad, far from it. I just want to know why some images are picked while other equally meritorious images are completely overlooked or why if the competition is so fierce images that have even slight flaws or universal focus issues make the cut.
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Christina C. Moore |
I really do believe that a lot of truly amazing images are being overlooked in a random sort of way, and it will be a hard sell to convince me otherwise. Susan, I think that you are brave to start these threads and should not be criticized for opening up a dialog.
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Danielle Fuller |
I have merly read over this thread, not reading every entry per say, but I think I got the jist of it. I have only been with BP a few months, and have already learned so much. I don't only study the winners, to see where I can improve, but even study some that don't get EFP's. If I like something I like it...I don't care what button it has. Now on the other side, I do enjoy the validation in my own gallery of a comment, an EFP, or a finalist....bringing me to my point.... Three, I have three finalists and a lot of EFP's. I don't see one person in this thread who I feel has the place to whine. You all are wonderful photographers with TONS of finalists and winners. WHat are you complaining about exactly? A person nearly has to go to page 3 of any of your galleries to see anything less than a Winner... The truth is as the contest grows, there still are a limited amount of EFP's Finalists, and Winners allowed!!! Do the math. New people are coming onto the site and entering. Therefore the contest odds are changing. Very simple answer guys! I do look up to most of you for your fine photography skills, and hope there are no hard feelings, but just like you I have an opinion too!!!
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Susan M. Smith |
Hi Danielle, welcome to BP. You clearly didn't look at mine, lindays or djoanne's galleries, to name a few, cause ours don't look like that. But that's not the point and neither is the fact that others have pages of finalist and winners. The changes discussed are recent, as in the past two months. So in answer to your question: "WHat are you complaining about exactly?" - I would have to say to go back and actually read the thread versus merely read over it. The people here are pretty well read and are able to state their cases fairly well, some without even whining. We all love BP, or else we wouldn't bother asking questions and trying to understand changes :) Oh and I'm very confused by this - Do you have the numbers because knowing the limited number of EFPs allowed would be helpful, none of us knows that. I'm sorry I just don't get what math we are supposed to be doing. Not trying to be smarky or anything, but it sounds like you have some info?
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Diane Dupuis |
Hi Danielle, Yes - some may have more winners and finalists than others - but did you look to see how long they've been here? 30 finalists over 3 years is different from 30 over one year - you know? Also - it's not a lottery - where if there are more entries then you have less chance. This should be based on skill - the photographer's skill - and I would hope that we would get better as time progresses - and not worse. Somehow though my success rate was better when I first began at BP with a 3 megapixel point and shoot. The past year + that I've had a dslr - I've sucked in comparison!! I don't know how to explain it or why it's happened but I don't think it's just because of the numbers.
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Susan M. Smith |
First, I did sound kinda snarkey above, so sorry about that. I still think anyone interested should read the thread because it was/is an interesting and educational discussion. Hi Diane! When I switched from my HP945 (essentially a P&S) to my dSLR I had a period of adjustment too. In fact, I think that was largely responsible for the break I took at BP and from photography, because I wasn't happy with what I was producing. I recall reading lots of books and being very confused. I still am trying to get a grip on some technical things that can be controlled with a dSLR. So, don't lose hope. Just keep shooting away, experiment, and read because "this too, shall pass." You are very talented and that will come through :)
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Danielle Fuller |
Ladies....My goodness, I didn't realize this was such a point of contention for you all! No Susan, I do not have any kind of special knowledge as far as entries. Although this thread always has nice numbers to mull over: http://www.betterphoto.com/forms/QnAdetail.php?threadID=31557 I'm simply stating that There are only a certain number of First place winners, second place winners, and finalists each month. That being said let's take an arbitrary number.....36,000 or so .... no matter if that number goes down to 10,000 or up to 50,000 there still are a limited number of First, Second, and Finalists place holders. As far as EFP's...It's my understanding that that holds a 7th place title....still seems like it depends on what is uploaded each day, into what category because you are being compared to the uploads of that day as far as the first stages of the competition. Once you get an EFP you are then compared to all EFP's,so on and so forth.....(I'm begining to run my sentences now and I fear my point is going to be missed because it's hard to explain without talking with my hands :) ) I'm not saying that everyone here doesn't have a right to complain, or shouldn't! I'm just making an observation...there are planty of BP'ers whom have had continual sucess over the months and years of the contest. I know if I don't get a finalist, or an efp I don't run around stomping my feel and crying conspiracy....I look and see how I can improve, not only for the contest but for personal gratitude. Keep in mind people if Winners and Finalists were easy to get everyone would have tons of them and they would not be nearly as coveted.
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Sharon Day |
Danielle, a while back we were able to watch the rounds. This was before the EFP. Roughly half of all photos made it to what was called the Runner's Up round. Mostly only the better photos were chosen to move up. Let's face it, there's possibly more than half the entries that are mediocre or technically flawed so some of those were likely to make it to the first round, but not like we're seeing with the EFP. AND not many really good photos were culled. That's my beef. Sure the contest is a fun thing and FREE but I've said it before and will say it again, I do not think just because it's free we should expect to see poor quality photos with an EFP under them. What I totally don't get is why reward people for crummy photos? It gives people a false sense of achievement. As you observed there are plenty of BPers who have had their share of success. I guess I'm one of them, but it's strange how that works. For a while I won regularly but it's been a year now since I've had a win. All of a sudden I can't take photos anymore? I don't think that's the case. I think my turn just ended which could lead to another hot topic and then we'd have the cheerleaders of the site telling me I'm all wet again :o). For me, I think I'm past it all. I'll enter when I have something I really like and just want to share but I have no expectations anymore. It was fun while it lasted but as I mentioned, my turn is over.
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KV Day |
Everytime you see 90 comments "great shot" on a lowsy photo, its the same dang thing. EFP are no different. If they were real friends they would not pat on the back a terrible photo!
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Sharon Day |
Vicki, you are absolutely right about that, but many here even though they are entering a contest are still just wanting to share their photos and do not want to hear the pic is lousy. I've done a few critiques and they are not always well received. I've critiqued photos of members that claim you can tell them if there's something wrong with a photo then when I pointed out what I saw I was told, "It looks fine to me." Now I just don't bother commenting on a photo unless I like it. Actually, I don't comment much at all anymore.
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Susan M. Smith |
Touche Vicki, that's a good idea! I wonder if someone started a critique thread and called it the NBZ (no bull zone , courtesy of PG101 group) if members would submit images for straightforward critique. Of course, you would have to expect that some people might not be constructive. Danielle, I think the issue has become a point of contention because a lot of folks try and justify the issue using the "subjective" reasoning. But like Sharon, I'm over it :) I do like to keep up with the thread though. As far as the limited numbers, that only applies to Grand, First and Second place winners. The Finalists vary. The stats in the countdown thread bear that out. We don't know what the number of EFPs are but I'm thinking they vary as well, similar to Finalists. Until recently, the Finalists did run at around 3% of all entries. And that percentage remained fairly constant and did not fluctuate because of new members and more entries. Someone please correct me if that percentage is wrong but in December they fell to less than half of that. There are those that wonder if that is what to expect in the future and if there has been a similar reduction in EFPs. At the risk of running on also, I shall leave it at that and go back to work on my images :)
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Debby A. Tabb |
Sharon, This has been a topic many times and as I have said before and will again, the BP contests are in no way a reliable judge for any ones work. if you are really interested in a judgment of your work try local,state and national contests. even Magazines such as Parade and other new papers have contests that would be more fair. BP has a world wide base, and so many enter it would be close to impossible to do justice to all. I myself entered when I first joined and that to date is the only badge I have received though I have entered images that have won state , National awards and have been Published in National Magazines. I continue to enter Images to other contests now and then,but mostly I am just happy doing MY work. And Gregory, I always look forward to his posts, The "House" of photography!
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Danielle Fuller |
And the drama continues!!! Sharon I think you touched on a wonderful subject "Everytime you see 90 comments "great shot" on a lowsy photo, its the same dang thing. EFP are no different. If they were real friends they would not pat on the back a terrible photo!" I also agree that I wish people would do more critquing and less pat on the back...however I do believe that you can find something positive in every photo...it might not be dead on perfect shot, but maybe it was creative or interesting in some way?...good light...whatever. Anyhow I do think maybe we should start a critiquing thread and put our energy there!!! All in favor say "I"
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Erika Haight |
I think critiques are a great asset to learning... I along with Danielle feel that there is almost always something positive to say about any photo ... and if theres not ... perhaps saying nothing is Best! However, without an honest critique... how does one ever improve!?? I am in favor of the critiquing thread!!!! ~ erika
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Amber J. Skene |
I agree on the critiques!! I want to become better and the only way to do that is to get HONEST feedback instead of, "cute capture," "adorable model," etc. I have had a couple people critique me, but I really wish more people would. That is the only way I am going to learn, and become better.
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- Dennis Flanagan Contact Dennis Flanagan Dennis Flanagan's Gallery |
Try sending on non-positive comment to someone who doesn't want to hear it and you become the prime duck in the shooting line. I wish it wasn't so, but a very large percentage of folks here only want to hear "great shot". I suggest if you want an honest critique, find someone whose work you admire and ask him/her off-line for their opinion. At the same time, if you get an unsolicited negative comment, look at their gallery and see if their shots are up to muster.
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
Dennis is right. If you want critiques, you should ask someone..or several someones..You critique someone who doesn't ask for it at your own peril. Some people do NOT want to hear it.
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Irene Troy |
Dennis – I completely agree with what you posted! I’ve stopped even offering critiques because so many people have gotten angry when I fail to gush over their images! Many people post images asking for “honest” critique only to take huge offense when you are honest. When I critique I always start with what is good and then move – gently – to what may be improved along with ideas of how I might have shot the scene a bit different. I am always conscious of my own lack of knowledge, experience and expertise and preface comments by noting these factors. I’ve told people that a horizon is off kilter or that the exposure is off and been slammed for that info. No more. It’s funny, but even in the classes I have taken at BP there always seems to be at least one person who gets upset when the instructor fails to adequately praise their work (adequate being in their eyes, not the instructors). I’m sorry, but to me it seems more than a little disingenuous to ask for critique or enter the contest and then be angry when you don’t place/win or when the critique is not wholly positive. I recently had the opportunity to do a little “hob-knobbing” with some of the real “stars” in photography. This was an event where some of the top names in the biz hung work at a charity event. I played fly on the wall and got to eavesdrop on a few conversations. I heard an awful lot of “well, its okay, but I could have shot the scene better” and “yeah, thanks for the compliment, but I wish that the light had been better” and that type of thing. Now these were the type images that take your breath away – at least they did for me – and yet, the pro stars saw the faults without feeling the need to defend their image. Interesting and perhaps there is a lesson there someplace. Irene
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Colleen Farrell |
What I find amusing--and this is not directed toward anyone in particular--is that some people who offer unsolicited critiques get really offended when they're not received with gushing gratitude. So, we're either offended by the critiques or offended that our critiques aren't taken seriously. ;) If people only want to hear "great shot," it's no skin off my nose. I leave a lot of comments, but only offer constructive criticism when people ask for it in their uploads, or email me. Otherwise, I generally just try to compliment the person on what does work in the photo. Usually there is *something* working, even if it's only a creative idea. In the cases when absolutely *everything* about the photo fails, I leave no comment.
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
If they aren't asking for a critique, and I want to say something, I'll do it off the site by email. I would never (almost never) say something negative in their comment thread unless I knew for sure they would take it well.
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KV Day |
I personally don't have time or desire to post on everyones photos and I surely don't want a bunch of shallow wtg comments just to get a ton of comments on my photos. I'll have to pass on that game, doesn't make the photo better to have 100 comments.
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Danielle Fuller |
I am so excited to see this thread going in a possitive direction!!! I have occasionally (twice I think) made suggestions to people about photos, and it has been well recieved, but I am sure most would not have that same outlook! I personally would appreciate any critique I can get! Out of the 110 (or so) photos in my gallery, I tyhink there are only 4 that I am really attached to, so I would just like to hear what someone else has to say!!! I also really appreciated Irene's story about the photographers she has over heard. I work with a group of photographers doing wedding work and they always say I have a low self estem because I am very hard on my own work, but it's only because I know what it is I am after and if I don't see that in my work (I have only been persuing photography seriously for about 8 months) I don't think it is good enough..... So who is ready to start the thread?
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- Ken Smith Contact Ken Smith Ken Smith's Gallery |
Sounds like you'd be the right person to start it, Danielle!! :-) Or, start a BP club that's into honest critiques...that way, if someone joins the club, it's cause they want honest feedback, and not the "great job" comments.
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Jeana Clark |
This is WAY OFF COURSE here, but has anyone noticed the First Place Buttons have changed to Green?? I don't have any of course, but noticed in another's gallery....besides, I wanted to bookmark this thread....it's quite entertaining!! LOL!! HAVE A GREAT NIGHT ALL!!!
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lindsay king |
Great idea Ken! I would love to be part of that group. If anyone starts one, let me know :-)
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Ken Austin |
The cash contest ones are green but the others are still gold.
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Jeana Clark |
Oh well.....Dummy Me!!! I REALLY wouldn't have one of those then!!!! Is there a page or something with all the winners of the cash contest??? I haven't found it yet if there is...just curious who the winners were/are.
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- Ken Smith Contact Ken Smith Ken Smith's Gallery |
Jeana, Contest Tab, last link at the bottom. Here's the actual URL: http://www.betterphoto.com/contest/cashcontestwinners.php
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Danielle Fuller |
Alright I statrted the critiquing Club, but was having a hard time inviting everyone soooooo...it's called Critic's Corner, and it's open to everyone.
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Danielle Fuller |
LOL @ Me...I meant Critique's Corner!
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Susan M. Smith |
Wonderful idea everyone! I'm a little hesitant to critique only because I don't feel I'm that knowledgeable. I'm definitely going to go visit the club. Should members that are willing to critique post some information about themselves? Or perhaps rate themselves by skill level? As someone astutely pointed out previously, one look at a critic's gallery can often help one in deciding if that critique is valuable to them. Just food for thought. So even tho this thread has gone off track, it has resulted in a positive development that I'm happy to support if there's anything I can offer :) I will check in as soon as I can. Toodles!
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Irene Troy |
Last night at my writer’s group I heard something that seems apropos to this discussion: (and Susan, this is certainly directed at, least somewhat, toward you!) Never doubt yourself…the rest of the world might doubt your abilities or talent, but you should never, ever, ever, under any circumstances, cast doubt upon yourself. I like that idea! Susan, you have a great gallery full of wonderful images! Obviously, you know what you are doing, so you already have the ability to offer good critique. Thank you, Danielle, for starting the club. I really look forward to getting some feedback from some of you wonderful photographers. Irene
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lindsay king |
Regarding Susan's comment about Critique's Corner Club, "I'm a little hesitant to critique only because I don't feel I'm that knowledgeable," My thought on this is that a critique is only someone's opinion, it doesn't necessarily make it true. I would love critiques from anyone, of any skill level, because I really do think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What a novice may see as junk, a pro may see as beautiful, you just never know. I'm going to join the club BECAUSE my skill level isn't very high. I hope you join too, I think it will be insightful :-) Lindsay
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Susan M. Smith |
Awwwshucks Irene...lol :) Thank you for the compliment and your advice is right on target. Lindsay followed that up with even more insight, which is that what one person may see, another may not. I also have to agree that by giving the critiquing a shot, I will likely learn as well. As long as nobody is critiquing my critique...lol. Just kidding!
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Debby A. Tabb |
The out look here from most concerning critique is very good. As I teach those who strive to become Photographers, I can most always tell who will make it and who won't, just by thier ability to take suggestions and critique and then try again. I love asking them to critique thier own work and mine and then going in to studio to play with options. Remember in most cases you will be your own worst critic! and that helps you raise your own bar! and for those of us who have been in it for awhile,thats how we learn new and cooler ways to look at a shot. or edit one. This thread has been alot of fun to watch develop. wishing you all much success, Debby ps: always take the time as you go through each year to look back and see how much your work has changed.
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Mick Burkey |
I am all for real critiques and more than willing to join a club for that purpose. But I would also like to first address the fact that we already have a "Constructive Critique” forum. But I think many are in agreement that what goes on there is not, for the most part, constructive critiques. I would very much like to take advantage of that forum since it is already set up with thumbs, etc. And it is my understanding the only way to get an image into that forum is to make an initial request for a critique and enter it into the Critique are in the drop-down menu attached to an initial response to a newly uploaded image. If all one wants is kind words, they can simply leave the image in their gallery and the phrases will come. The “great shot” comments, by their very nature, are not critiques because they are not critical. BetterPhoto itself defines the “Constructive Critique” forum as “Critiques, suggestions, and thoughtful analysis”. They also have a forum for the “great shot” interaction called “Friendly Praise”, defined by BP as “Compliments on fellow photographers' work - i.e. ‘Great picture!’ ” The fact that we could not get real feedback on our work, unless we pay for a “pro” critique, got me to explore other websites. I now belong to other photo sites with forums on equipment, technique, types of photos and other topics. And some of them have real actual critique forums where the idea of simply giving out more kudos is not only discouraged, but down right stopped. Granted, the critiques are from other members of the site and many, if not most, are not professional photographers, like BP. But the forum is for critiques and critiques only. One difference on that site is that they have moderators who will move the thread to the proper place if it is inappropriate for that forum. But I believe we BPers can self-police our threads by stating simply “thanks for your kind words, but I am looking for a constructive critique of this image” kind of response when receiving only Friendly Praise from someone. Eventually we’ll get it, I would hope. As for people feeling they are not qualified to critique an image, I read on one of my other sites where a person, an amateur photographer, said she looks at the image as if it were in a gallery and would she buy it or not and why. I think that is a very good and extremely valid way to look at things. So I think everyone has an opinion that can be useful to those of us who what to improve our work. And remember, as the saying goes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I would also like to post this message as a new QA or whatever in the general BP forum for others to comment on and add any suggestions. Or am I once again beating a very dead horse.
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Sharon Day |
"My thought on this is that a critique is only someone's opinion, it doesn't necessarily make it true." Sorry, Lindsay but this isn't always true. There are elements of photographs and art that follow "rules" if that's the appropriate term for it. I'm sure the pro are always conscious of these rules or guidelines when shooting. As an example, in landscape photography you need to watch for elements such as diagonal lines, leading lines and curves which are all important aspects of a photograph and placement of these elements helps make a photo more pleasing and not so static.
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Danielle Fuller |
Sharon, See that's the feedback I am talking about!!!! You certainly sound like you know what you are talking about....and that's good enough for me! I am so looking forward to you joining the club with all of that insight!!! I think it will be a positive experience once we all get the hang of how exactly to post our comments on the thread of the phots!
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Sharon Day |
Danielle, I appreciate the vote of confidence but I'm really not good at critique. Even when I like a photo the "great photo" comment is about as eloquent as I can get LOL.
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