 Alison Krylowski |
Harder to place in EFP/Finalists lately?? Has anyone else noticed that they have not received as many finalist or EFP emblems in the recent months??? A lot more of my older images have been chosen while my newer and improved ones are not. I have noticed that more and more images are being entered into the contest each month which may account for this change. No complaints here, I am just curious as to your thoughts!!!
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- Cindy Bendush Contact Cindy Bendush Cindy Bendush's Gallery |
Hi Alison - Except for the consistent winners, it seems a lot of people are experiencing this drop off from what I've heard. This month in particular I've received fewer EFP'S than previously. I'm not sure whether the increase in entries would be the reason or not -- it seems that when it comes down to the finalists, they are consistent within a percentage as it relates to entries. Anybody else have any thoughts?
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Glenn E. Urquhart |
Good Morning Alison – I am glad you brought this up… thought I was the only one. Like you, a lot more older images of mine were selected and my newer material, which I also 'thought' I was improving on, has dropped off significantly. I really have no logical thought on why, with the exception, that maybe my work is not improving, which is always a possibility! Well, like you, no complaints. We must always remember, like all art, selections of the best photos are very subjective. Best wishes and good luck in the future, Glenn.
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Alison Krylowski |
Thanks for your responses, Cindy & Glenn. I am glad to know I am not the only one who has noticed this. I tend to re submit a lot of my images because something one judge passes on, may be a favorite of another. Oh well, BetterPhoto been a great learning experience for me and maybe this will keep me motivated to improve even more.
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- Ken Smith Contact Ken Smith Ken Smith's Gallery |
It's the opposite for me...so far this month and midway thru last month, I've had more and was assuming BP was giving out more. Next month, I'll probably get less. I think it's a lot of luck...in BP's defense, I don't see how they can go thru 1,000+ entries a day and give them all a good look.
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Spencer Doyle |
The photos I've submitted this month are the only ones without a badge. I just figured I'm slippin'.
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- Christine Czernin Contact Christine Czernin Christine Czernin's Gallery |
I am glad that somebody else has the same feeling, that EP are getting scarcer. I was really getting depressed, thinking I am doing something wrong. Oh well,kind of consolation not to be alone. Btw, there were over 40.000!!!submitted and only 643 finalists instead of well over 900. Seems thing are getting tougher.
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Ronald F. Fischer |
Me, too, but such is life! Have a great weekend everyone!
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher  Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
It seems that Ken is the only one who is happy. I've got only 4 this month (so far) as compared to 21 for all of last month. I think "it's not us, it's them" is the proper sentiment. I'm happy with last month, so I'll shut up about this month...hard as it is for me to do. You know how I like to complain.
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Samantha L. Dean |
I've noticed the same thing. I have even been taking classes and purchased my first DSLR. I don't understand. I thought maybe I had angered the EFP gods. :-) Those symbols have been so encouraging, wish they'd come back. Maybe I'm not getting any better but instead getting worse. Oh well, I love BP for the learning experiences and the clubs.
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Deb Koskovich |
Me too...I'm trying not to get discouraged. I have 5 for the month, so I am not complaining, believe me -- but there have been several that I loved and thought "This one for SURE..." and then ... nyet, nada, zilch.
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Shawn Jennings |
I've got 14 so far this month and 4 of those are resubmits. But a couple that I thought might have a chance in the contest have been overlooked. Guess I'll resubmit those another month. :o) I really think BP has so many more entries now than just six months ago that a lot of images are unintentially overlooked that might have normally gone further in the contest. I had a second place win this month with an image that didn't receive an EFP a few months ago when I originally submitted it.
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Erik Rasmussen |
Was just looking in the forum to see if there was this type of thread! I posted an almost identical picture with just a little bit more croping, and 1 was EFP and 1 wasnt. There doesnt seem to be a whole lot of consistency anymore. I honestly believe its when you post it and if a judge just happens to see it. There is no way you can truely judge ALL the pictures in a contest that each member can enter 1 picture a day, the numbers are impossible to achieve that. I also look at some of the finalist and just scratch my head. I know this has been discussed before, but I think 1 per day, for 30 days is too many entries. You shouldnt have 28k photos in the landscape category to pick through...and thats just 1 category! But also, im glad im not the only one feeling this way...I thought I had some good chances, but apparently not ( I really thought my Blue Velvet flower picture had a chance)
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Alison Krylowski |
Thanks everyone for your comments. I am starting to agree that 1 entry per day is too much too.....it's discouraging, especially since there seems to be a group of people who ALWAYS win. Some have 3 or 4 winners a month, which I personally don't think is fair. I always have wondered if the judges look at the names of the photographer during the process or if it is random.
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- Dennis Flanagan Contact Dennis Flanagan Dennis Flanagan's Gallery |
Alison, I understand your sentiment about fairness. At the same time, this is a context for the BEST images entered in the month. If limiting who can enter based on past winners, it is no longer a contest. If I win, I want mine to be the best, period. Not win because someone wasn't allowed to enter a better shot. If you look at the people's galleries that constantly win, you will see all quality work. Not a bunch of snapshots with buttons. Good luck and have fun. That's all that matters.
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Alison Krylowski |
Thanks for your comments Dennis. Again, I am not complaining and didn't intend to sound like I was. I am so happy with the 5 finalists I have gotten in the past 3 years. I love BetterPhoto, it has been a tremendous learning experience for me and I have met so many people and learned so much from them. And my photography is improving. I posted this in the forum to simply see if I was being a sore loser and if anyone else shared my thoughts! Have a great day!
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Revonda L. Gentry |
Alison, from what I understand about the judging process the photographers name is not shown with the image when they/judges are looking. It that helps any:)
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- Ken Smith Contact Ken Smith Ken Smith's Gallery |
I was on a telecon with Jim Miotke awhile back...he said the same thing--that the names don't show up with the judging. But of course, lots of people include their name on the photo, and BP even has the capability to append the name directly on the photo..so, there's no escaping that the judges can read names, if they're copyrighted onto the image.
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ecameronphotography.com - Errick L. Cameron Contact Errick L. Cameron Errick L. Cameron's Gallery |
It is all a game. And there is a lot of name recognition for sure. I have sold five photos this year at $300 - 500 each. Three of them were not even editors picks. Too many pics and judges must be looking at names.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Maybe if you would've priced it at $299.
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ecameronphotography.com - Errick L. Cameron Contact Errick L. Cameron Errick L. Cameron's Gallery |
I would probably sell the same number if the price was $150. The point I was trying to make is that I think bp is flooded. Flooded was point and shoot stuff and flooded with good stuff. There is no doubt in my mind that the quality of the enthusiastic shooter has improved on bp during the past three years. I think that at least the quality of my stuff has improved. For that I am thankful for bp. As far as the contest goes... I think that you could have a superior piece and that it could get over looked very easily on bp. Just to many images on a page that draws attention form each individual one. Here is my take... If one wants recognition, and if we are all honest with ourselves we all want some level of recognition, then I believe that it maybe a good idea to look outside of bp. Juried art shows, sales, getting published, sending calenders to family members... just a few avenues. bp is a good place to learn and make friends, but if you desire recognition you might be disappointed.
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David W. Orias |
I would agree Errick, feedback from as many sources is probably better and lack of recognition of an image here does not mean the image is substandard. And let us not forget, it is one thing looking at an image on a monitor and it is another thing looking at a large print. A shrunken web image can sometimes hide a flaw that would be apparent on a print.
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Shane Osieczanek |
I'm just an amateur at this whole photography thing as far as the technical stuff goes. I've had many cameras and taken tons of photos. For me the contest is just a small part of the BetterPhoto site. I do enjoy getting the Editor's Picks but I enjoy the comments I receive from others on the site more. It let's me know that people are actually looking at my photos.
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ecameronphotography.com - Errick L. Cameron Contact Errick L. Cameron Errick L. Cameron's Gallery |
I have been asked to do two photo shots this weekend. One a Christmas card and one a series of portrait of children. both are friends. This gives me a high. A bigger high then being a bp contest winner. And it isn't about $ as these are friends and there is no charge.
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Sharon Day |
I used to get them almost every day. Now I get them about once every three days if I'm lucky. Some members still get them everyday but I don't have a clue why they are so lucky. Must be an "art is subjective" thing (like I believe that) because my photos are as good as the ones I'm referring to who are still getting them everyday. No brag, just fact :o). BTW, I don't win anymore either if anyone cares unless you count finalists which are not wins but simply finalists. I have a theory but everyone who knows me knows what that theory is ad nauseam. Few agree with me but I'm still convinced in my own mind ;).
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Sharon Day |
"I really have no logical thought on why, with the exception, that maybe my work is not improving, which is always a possibility!" Glen, that's NOT what the problem is.
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Sharon Day |
".....it's discouraging, especially since there seems to be a group of people who ALWAYS win." Oh, you noticed that too did you, Alison?? Before someone points out I used to win consistently, that can not be said of me anymore. My photography skills are not in decline either. Anyone besides me wonder how with 40,000+ entries in a given month there are always a few members you see in the winner's circle every month or two??? When I was winning I didn't question it, but now I question how that happened to me as well. I don't think it had much to do with luck either. Just call me sour grapes and Carolyn isn't the only one who likes to complain ;).
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Alison Krylowski |
Thanks for your comments, Sharon. It's very interesting to hear what others have to say about this. I remember when you were a consistent winner! Many other super talented photographers that have been my inspiration have also received less recognition lately. I truly think that there are too many entries and maybe with the rise in memberships, the rules need to be changed. I know my photographs are good and I am realizing that I don't need to place in the contest to justify that. Being a member here has given me a push and the confidence to pursue a part time career in photography. An off topic question...Can an image that has previously been chosen as EFP but not placed in the contest be resubmitted in the contest in the future months?
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ecameronphotography.com - Errick L. Cameron Contact Errick L. Cameron Errick L. Cameron's Gallery |
I have yet to get a win. Maybe my stuff just isn't that good.
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Alison Krylowski |
Oh hush, Errick!! You have a beautiful gallery and you don't need BP to tell you you are talented! I decided not to get upset about this anymore, it's a crap shoot. There seems to be no rhyme to reason to how winners are picked!
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
In spite of the fact that I got a win last month, I'm in the same boat as Sharon this month. Only 10 EFP's for the entire month. I think I know to whom Sharon refers and I'm in agreement that there's something off somewhere since that person's photos aren't the slightest bit better than several others who win consistantly. It's been sort of up and down lately. This last time I had 3 finalists 1 win, the month before no finalists at all. And I believe my best work was passed over this time, too....Having said that, I just don't see how they can actually look at all those entries. It's got to be an impossible job, so maybe it's just easier to give more or less the same people wins over and over. I think there are so many excellent shots submitted in a month, it would be hard to give all the ones that may deserve it a button. Alison's right it's a crap shoot. I'm going to try not to complain so much next year...my resolution...and I hope it lasts longer than the diets do. LOL
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Sharon Day |
"I'm going to try not to complain so much next year...my resolution...and I hope it lasts longer than the diets do. LOL" LOL Carolyn! I'm making no such promise ;)! It's a rough landing going from a win every couple or so months to none at all :o). Personally, I think in the near future there will be a new member in the #1 position if the wins keep piling up as they are now ;). Couldn't happen to a nicer person and a graceful winner so you can't begrudge them :). IF the contest is anonymous maybe I should start signing my photos :o)?
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Kai Eiselein |
Hey Erikk, don't feel bad, it took me nearly four years to get a finalist.... and I make my living with my camera. As for EFPs, I've been lucky, about 80 percent of my entries have received one. The ones that didn't I've generally agreed with after taking a closer look. I didn't enter at all last month, and only entered four this month, so I don't know if they are getting harder to come by.
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Christina C. Moore |
I noticed this too. I have been shooting black and white lately and so thought that there just might not be as much dazzle in my work as of late. However, I am happy with this new series of images and so it does not really matter. Maybe, BP is trying to tighten the competition a bit, to make it easier to select finalists at the end of the month. Incidentally, at one point an editor's pick was removed from one of my images... Can an editor unpick an image? Oh well. Its all still good.-C2
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Colleen Farrell |
Alison asked, "Can an image that has previously been chosen as EFP but not placed in the contest be resubmitted in the contest in the future months?" Sure, you can resubmit a photo that got EFP but not Finalist/Win. If you enter it straight from your gallery, you won't be able to tell if it gets a "new" EFP button, though. Christina, if you got an EFP on a photo, it shouldn't go away. However, back in July when they first started EFPs there was a glitch and some "fell off." Most of those will come back if you resubmit, at least in my experience. As for the wins, it's a total mystery to me. I'm sure the number of entries is overwhelming. I do think I'm getting fewer EFPs, and on fewer of my best entries, imho. And, no matter how hard the judges try not to be influenced, if a person's name is on a photo, I can't see how it wouldn't make some impression.
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- Dennis Flanagan Contact Dennis Flanagan Dennis Flanagan's Gallery |
You can resubmit winners too. If you resubmit a 2nd place or higher, when/if it gets a EFP or Finalist, it will supercede your previously earned button.
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Colleen Farrell |
Right, Dennis--thanks for clarifying. My comment made it sound like you could *only* resubmit EFPs!
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Alison Krylowski |
Thanks Colleen & Dennis! I am pleased to know I can re submit some of my favorites that did not make it to the finals.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Then maybe you'll get off that list that has Errik Cameron on it specifically stating to not award his pictures any wins.
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Kai Eiselein |
When did you pose for Dennis' mini-pic LaGrange?
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Alison Krylowski |
hahahaha.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
There's an over inflated ego and something lacking if you really think there's somebody who's deciding who should win or loose based on looking at a list of names.
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Alison Krylowski |
relax I never said anything of the sort.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
not you kid
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Sharon Day |
"There's an over inflated ego and something lacking if you really think there's somebody who's deciding who should win or loose based on looking at a list of names." Donald Trump summed it up nicely, "Show me someone without an ego and I'll show you a loser". ;)
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Christina C. Moore |
...Or a Buddhist. Peace to all sentient beings, even Donald Trump. Warm regards, C2
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Colleen Farrell |
I don't think anybody said the judges decide the winners by looking at a list of names.
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Kai Eiselein |
LaGrange, you've been spewing your acidic vitrol in nearly every thread you've posted in. If anybody has a simple question, you are certain to have some smarta$$ reply. If anyone has a complaint, there you are again, with another smarta$$ reply. It's getting tiresome, grow up and contribute like an adult rather than a high school freshman.
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Christina C. Moore |
I am sorry if my comment was juvenile. I did not realize how heated the debate was and was trying to lighten things up a bit. Also, I study Buddhism and so would very much like to be free of ego, which is why I thought the comment was so funny.... It is unfortunate when threads get contentious like this because BP is such a wonderful community. I wish everyone some happy photography!-C2
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Sharon Day |
Christina, you said nothing wrong! Gregory wasn't referring to you unless I'm just paranoid LOL. Don't take the Q&A too seriously. It's not a big deal and I'm sure no one is mad. You're not mad are you Gregory? I'm not mad and I bet no one else is.
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Christina C. Moore |
Oh no, it was not that. I just don't want to be snarkish. I simply wanted to recontextualize my statement. Also, I absolutely do not take these things seriously, but was sensing a bit of tension and did not want to add to it. I am not mad at anybody.
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Sharon Day |
Christina, everyone has an opinion. Just don't worry about anything and whatever you do don't take the Q&A topics like this one seriously ;).
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Christina C. Moore |
Thanks Sharon. I am absolutely cool with this one. I guess I am used to the DIC where every thread seems to turn into an all out brawl. Warm regards,C2
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Colleen Farrell |
The debate's not heated ... it's just that some of us do get weary of the "smart a$$" comments, as Kai put it, every time we try to discuss something sincerely. 'Nuff said. :)
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Christina C. Moore |
Okay- I guess I will put down my bar stool. LOL.-C2
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Don't cry kai. You've doubtfully read more than 2% of the threads I've posted in. So I'll let you know now that I'll probably point out the absurd again if it comes up. Vitriol, not vitrol.
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ecameronphotography.com - Errick L. Cameron Contact Errick L. Cameron Errick L. Cameron's Gallery |
You know guys... Photography is fun for me. I only hope that it is fun for you as well. That said, if I wrote something that made someone upset, I am deeply sorry. This is my release on a sometimes hectic life and I enjoy every second in BP!
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Mick Burkey |
I believe there has been a sharp drop in the quality of the Editor's Picks, as I see them when clicking on Editor's Picks, and a corresponding loss of Editor’s Picks for images I’ve seen that were entered but not given an Editor’s Pick and therefore not allowed through the first stage of judging. And if this is indeed a system of filtering the lesser images from higher quality images for the contests, my concern is with that system to begin with. While I think the quality and level of the winning images, both 1st and 2nd place, is still high, I feel the quality of the pool has been lowered and lesser images are passed along while higher images are left behind. No doubt it is a logistical challenge to go through 4oK+ images each month, but I wonder who the editors are who do the initial filtering and how it is done. I think BP is simply overwhelmed with entries and because of that way too many quality images do not even get past the first round.
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Colleen Farrell |
Hi Mick, apparently the Editor's Picks are chosen by "BP staff," and then passed on to the judges, who are instructors. This is what a BP member was told when he (she?) asked during the summit in Chicago. (It was posted in one of the threads here.) In addition to the sheer volume of entries, this could account for why some EP picks (and non-picks) leave us scratching our heads. ;)
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
Definitely a lot of good stuff gets left behind...but I promised myself I'd try to quit complaining, so I'm just going to agree with what Mick said. I've also heard what Colleen heard, so maybe it's the problem.
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Mick Burkey |
Hi Colleen, That's pretty much what I understood as well. And I'm not trying to put down the fine staff at BP, but I think way too many of the first round choices are cliché, have limited creativity and originality and have limited interest except to family and friends. Each month there are the many people pictures which are what I call the “grandma will love this” shot, the “baby laying on an outstretched arm with black background” shot, the “here’s my cute child in a holiday appropriate costume / make-up” shot, and the” girlfriend / boyfriend out of doors” shot. In Travel, we have the “while in (choose country) we went to the (choose monument) and here’s a picture of it” shot, the “I know how to properly expose for night time and did so in (choose city)” shot, and the “here’s the famous (choose place / monument / bride / church / etc) which no one around here has been to” shot. I could go on and on, but won’t. Again, not to knock the BP staff, but it’s as if they have a quota and need to choose X number of shots for each category each day or week. A task (get some pictures for the judges) rather than a goal (choose the best pictures for the judges). And I think this hurts the initial pool the judges have to choose from.
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Mick Burkey |
I should have added that there is nothing wrong with the types of pictures I mentioned. In fact, I take those kinds as well. And some are very fine photographs indeed. But I have seldom if ever seen these kinds of images win 1st or 2nd place once the judges make their final picks. So why bother. I would prefer to keep them all at the highest quality available.
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Sharon Day |
"Each month there are the many people pictures which are what I call the “grandma will love this” shot, the “baby laying on an outstretched arm with black background” shot, the “here’s my cute child in a holiday appropriate costume / make-up” shot, and the” girlfriend / boyfriend out of doors” shot. In Travel, we have the “while in (choose country) we went to the (choose monument) and here’s a picture of it” shot, the “I know how to properly expose for night time and did so in (choose city)” shot, and the “here’s the famous (choose place / monument / bride / church / etc) which no one around here has been to” shot. I could go on and on, but won’t." Forget placing in N&L if you don't take a good evening shot or can't/won't edit to create one :o).
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Steve M. Harrington |
I agree completely with Mick's concerns and have wondered for some time how this shift in quality was occurring. Some time back I posted a response from BP that said explicitly that the judge for a category selected the EPs for that category. Despite that, the prevailing belief seems to be that the EPs are chosen by BP staff, as was reported from a conversation at the summit. I decided to ask again. The first reply was the standard "for your viewing ease and pleasure..." I repeated my question and pointed out that it had not been answered. Specifically, are EPs selected by the judges or by BP staff? It is a simple question, and one that I think we have a right to have answered. I have received no reply after two weeks. I urge all of you to ask that simple question. Whatever the answer is will be telling in a number of ways.
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Sharon Day |
Steve, I didn't promise to be good and not complain ;), but really if BP doesn't want to disclose how they judge the contest they really don't have to. I guess it's their site and they can run it the way they see fit. They have always seemed to me to prefer a veil of secrecy regarding how it's judged. While I don't really believe it's an anonymous contest anymore, seeing so many of the same names each month in the winner's circle, they still have the right to judge it how they wish and we can enter or not. Honestly, I don't know why I enter anymore. I guess addictions die hard LOL. I'm not even getting any EFP buttons this month. That should tell even Gregory something other than I have a big ego :D.
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Colleen Farrell |
Hmmm ... interesting, Steve. Maybe the reason you haven't received a reply, and why we seem to be getting different answers at different times, is that there's not a set method for EPs/judging at this time. Maybe they're trying out different procedures, and they've done it both ways, and it's still in flux. Maybe they don't want to say that, for fear of making the natives restless! lol I also agree with Mick's concerns. But I think the EFP is given as much for a pat on the back as it is a marker of moving along in the contest. So, why should we bother submitting photos that are cliched but we like anyway? Because we still enjoy getting that gold button, even if the photo isn't likely to go farther. One can still hope. ;) Why should BP bother with EFPs for less-than-stellar photos? Well, it's definitely stimulated interest in the contest, and probably the whole site as well. That's good for them. I don't know, just some thoughts.
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- Ken Smith Contact Ken Smith Ken Smith's Gallery |
If I paid big bucks to be a BP member, then I'd like insight into their process. But, for most folks, the contest is free...I'm just thankful BP has the contest...and I think they keep it a mystery for a reason...it allows for more speculation, which means more forum threads. And to think...what did we do when EPs didn't exist? We probably stayed away from BP more...perhaps that's a reason theme entries have increased from the 26K to 38K range...more interest in BP..and getting the coveted EP! :-)
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Sharon Day |
Ken, I can't even remember life before BP. Isn't that sad LOL.
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Alison Krylowski |
I totally agree with you Ken. I searched a long time to find an online contest that wasn't a scam before finding BetterPhoto! And I was so happy when EFPs started being acknowledged. Thanks for your comments. :)
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Christina C. Moore |
Sometimes when I look at an editor's pick, it is a no-brainer, the image is clearly exemplary. However, sometimes I wonder whether or not the EP is a carrot for some, just a bit of encouragement to keep people who may not have as much experience interested. It is just a different interpretation of what is going on and is probably incorrect at that.-C2
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Steve M. Harrington |
We're not talking about revealing the secret ingredients of Coke here. If we are to value this competition (and I do) then we should begin with the assumption that the judges are qualified photographers. I think it is more than reasonable to ask whether the first round of the process is done by qualified individuals.
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- Ken Smith Contact Ken Smith Ken Smith's Gallery |
Steve, hopefully none of the fine folks on the BP staff will take offense at the "qualified" comment...I'm not trying to be difficult..it's just a free contest for fun...and I agee...it's certainly OK to ask...heck, we've been asking for a different style button for EPs from the beginning..., and never heard anything back from BP...
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Sharon Day |
"We're not talking about revealing the secret ingredients of Coke here." LOL Steve! Good one :o)!
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Christina C. Moore |
I am a Dr. Pepper girl myself Steve.... very curious about those 24 ingredients.....
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Colleen Farrell |
"and I think they keep it a mystery for a reason...it allows for more speculation, which means more forum threads." EXACTLY! That's my thinking, too, Ken. And to be honest, I kind of like it being a mystery. Maybe because that keeps it a game, and I can still enjoy it and fantasize about winning that gold some day. LOL << We're not talking about revealing the secret ingredients of Coke here.>> LOL! So true, Steve. But I do think we'd have more reason to complain or question if we had to pay to enter.
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Sharon Day |
"But I do think we'd have more reason to complain or question if we had to pay to enter." Colleen, the above comment made me think of other contests that do require members to pay to play. None of the contest sites are perfect. I remember when DPC was still around. That site required a yearly fee to enter. They also let members be judges. Members couldn't enter the contest the months they were sitting in as judges but I still thought that setup was pretty lame. Then you have Shutterbugs that requires people pay to win. I guess you can get a POTD there without paying but they will not consider non paying members for POTM from what I've heard. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. I have only entered one other online contest a few times and didn't have much fun with it. I'm sure most of my opinions and theories aren't appreciated, and since I don't win anymore I'm a little freer with them ;), but I really only like this site and it's far and above better than the rest without question IMHO! I haven't even entered another contest in MONTHS and I don't plan to! I'm still not making any promises not to complain though :o).
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Michael Skelton . |
Before there was “EP’s” all I ever really paid attention to was the finalist and winners. Checked the photos to see what I liked and examined what I would do differently if anything at all. From this I learned to develop my own vision .I have found in this way that Betterphoto is a great tool for learning. Before that it was upload my photos and if anyone included a kind word then I would check what others had to say and thank them for taken the time to review my efforts. The appreciation of one’s work came mostly from each other here at Betterphoto. Then along came the “EP’s” and it was like Betterphoto’s way of giving everyone a pat on the back. And I believe a lot more interest was generated among the members. I was just as caught up in the excitement as everyone else. It seemed as if the “EP’s”, some how became as important as the awards. I still feel good when I see one of the buttons stationed under a photo of mine. But I now try real hard to keep them in perspective. First it’s nice to know someone noticed my efforts. Keeping in mind it’s not really a gage of how you are developing, nor is not one getting one a slap at one’s efforts. Finding one’s own vision and creating something beautiful is what we are all really trying to do. I stopped wondering why some photos get buttons and why others don’t. It’s really not important. I’m on the road I want to travel to advance my development , and whether it’s filled with buttons or none at all, I know that I’ll keep getting better as long as I’m willing to make the sacrifices necessary for improvement. So enjoy the buttons. I hope everyone gets truck loads every month. But don’t let them divert you from the road you are traveling. Merry Christmas Everyone.
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Samantha L. Dean |
Wow Michael. Very well put!!!! Merry Christmas to you too!!!
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Colleen Farrell |
"I'm still not making any promises not to complain though :o)." LOL, Sharon, I'm glad you complain and I plan to, as well! I think a lot of folks are afraid to say anything negative, so I especially appreciate those who aren't. ;) I'm not sure I phrased my comment right. It was more a statement about just how exercised we should get over how it's judged--not that we shouldn't ever criticize it. It's just that if I had to pay to enter the contest, I'd probably be more concerned about the judging. As it is, I can be incredulous, annoyed or disappointed by the results, but that's about it. Not knowing how it's judged certainly won't drive me away from the site, or prevent me from entering, and being proud/pleased if I do win. :)
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Mick Burkey |
When you say the contest is free, does that mean the folks who have the free site are also eligible to enter the contests?
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
Yes, everyone can enter.
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Alison Krylowski |
When I joined BP a couple years ago,I was able to have a gallery of 30 images and enter the contest daily for free. The premium gallery, which has a small annual fee, offers more images and bigger thumbnails. As far as I know it's the same...happy holidays to all! by the way - I got an EFP on an image today that was looked over in a previous contest. :)
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Christina C. Moore |
Hi Alison.... Way to go! Did you actually have to re-upload the image or did you simply mark it for the contest using the edit field? Thank you- C2
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
"I think a lot of folks are afraid to say anything negative, so I especially appreciate those who aren't. ;)" Hey, no problem. 
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Alison Krylowski |
Good morning! Christina, all I did was type in re submit in the description box in the edit field and entered it in the Flower category. I am trying a few re submits this month, some that have been picked as EFPs and others that have never been picked. We will see what happens. I started shooting the xmas tree last night! What fun to play with long exposures. :)
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Ross Throndson |
I think it's better to not let a Photo Contest determine the value of our Photography.....our Art.....our Vision.... You know, there have been Many images that went Unnoticed here for up to a Year... that ended up Winning Images.....even Grand Prize. Competition here is... F I E R C E ! ! ! And certain types of images just look better on the Web....Some photos that are a Masterpiece as a Print....look like nothing on a Computer Display. Problem is....these Photo Contests get Addictive....maybe it's better not to place too much value on them.....I try to keep my expectations low.....then I'm not so disappointed when I get nothing. For me photography is just a Fun....Creative Hobby & Outlet....i do it when I feel like it....it's not my Job...Gold Buttons aren't feeding my family.....Some approach Photo Contests almost like a business.....they have thousands & thousands of images they enter in many contests every month.....and more power to them.....But photo contests are Not why I Love Photography... They have Improved my photography though.....and they can be a lot of fun & have their place. They're not perfect....But IMHO....BP has the most Encouraging Community & Fair Online Contest.....Can't be easy going through 40k pics a month.....
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- Christine Czernin Contact Christine Czernin Christine Czernin's Gallery |
Ross, I agree with you 100%. You could not say it better. Let's leave some room beside BP, there are other things in life too. That said, I have to admit, that I love submitting pictures to the contest, wait anxiously for the results, feel disappointed. But there is always another chance next month. Check the BP Mission Statement: BP should be FUN, FUN, FUN!
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- Cindy Bendush Contact Cindy Bendush Cindy Bendush's Gallery |
Allison - re_ "all I did was type in re submit in the description box in the edit field and entered it in the Flower category." Where do you find a description box and an edit field? I thought the only 2 ways you can re-submit were to simply re-enter it from your original files or use the photo ID box to change categories??? Please let me know if I'm wrong!
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
Alison has a website. It probably doesn't work for premium galleries.
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ecameronphotography.com - Errick L. Cameron Contact Errick L. Cameron Errick L. Cameron's Gallery |
I always resubmit by reuploading. Otherwise your posted pic goes in the order of the original entery into bp. thus it gets buried behind some 20K pics. If bp selects EPs on an on going process, It might get missed as they move up on the calender posts. Also, I have non bp friends that look at my new post every day. They wont see one if you resubmit from bp archives. I have actually gotten phone calls saying "when are you going to put a picture up today?"
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Alison Krylowski |
Hi all, I hope I understand your question Cindy! I will do my best to answer. When I go into my Member Center and click on the Better Photos button along the top. The first group of links on the left is called "Gallery Images". It looks like this: Gallery Images When you click on edit photos, you can change the title, description (where many describe place, lens, lighting)or choose not display any of your images in your gallery or delete them. This description box is where I typed "re-submit". I am not even sure you need to clarify that is it a re submit when entering a photo for the 2nd, 3rd or 4th time! I have resubmitted others but it was before the EFP buttons so it was harder to keep track. Also, this was a resubmit from a few months ago. Are you talking about resubmitting a photo in the current contest? Like deleting one that is already presently entered? Let me know if I am way off base. Hope I helped, at least a little!
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Colleen Farrell |
Now I'm confused. ;) Alison, if you submitted a photo a few months ago and want to resubmit it now, my understanding is that just typing "resubmit" in the description box won't do it. The way I do it is, click on "edit your photos," and there, under each thumbnail pick, is an option to "enter contest." I click on that. So my old entry is now resubmitted to a new monthly contest. I can use this option to change categories, too, simply by clicking on a different category at the prompt. When I re-enter this way, I can add a line in the description that says "resubmit" or not. But I thought you had to actually click an option to enter the contest each time, not just change something in the description. Maybe we'll need to contact BP staff to clarify this.
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Alison Krylowski |
Oh boy I am sorry if I confused anyone!! :) I did it exactly how you did, Colleen. I just decided to type "re-submit" in the description box to let my BP friends know that I had entered the photo in a previous contest without being chosen EFP. You are totally correct, Colleen!
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Colleen Farrell |
Oh, OK--phew! LOL Thanks for the clarification, Alison! :D
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- Cindy Bendush Contact Cindy Bendush Cindy Bendush's Gallery |
Thanks Alison - I understand what you're talking about now. But...consider what Errik said: when you re-submit from your gallery, your image is placed further back than the currrent entries due to its ID number. I agree it could easily be missed as I've NEVER had any success re-submitting this way! So I usually just start over. I hate deleting all the wonderful comments; sometimes if I'm re-submitting right away, I'll copy and paste them -- that way, those who have commented don't need to do so again. If I've changed part of the image though it becomes a new image and I state that I've made changes or re-worked it. Has anybody else had success re-submitting straight from their galleries? Just wondering...
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Mick Burkey |
I have had success with re-submitted images, but that was over a year ago. And if it's true that re-submitted images get "lost" because of their ID number, that is just plain not fair. If BP needs to limit the amount of entries, then do it. If they need to change the way submitted entries are lined up in the contest to the date they are entered rather than the original upload date, then do that. But for us to simply sit and say “oh, well, hehe, it’s free and I don’t measure my life by the contest” is not fair to those who consider this friendly competition worthwhile. It’s either a fair competition and all submissions are treated the same or it’s not. Simple as that! For us to go through hoops of deleating images and re-uploading, etc., is just ridiculous and counterproductive. I’m also very disappointed that BP does not respond about this and to the simple question that Steve Harrington put forth on how the judging is done. Every other site I am part of is very forthcoming about how the judging is performed and communicates with the members on these issues. It doesn’t really matter how it is done, but I think we, as members of the BP community, have the right to know. Come on, BP, just tell us how your judging is done, from EFPs through final placement, and we can then make our decisions based on the true and real facts. It’s the fair and right thing to do.
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- Ken Smith Contact Ken Smith Ken Smith's Gallery |
Cindy and Mick, although the photo is placed way back in the contest pages, that doesn't mean it's lost to the judging process. For contest purposes, they have all the photos categorized by the DAY they were submitted, not the actual day of the first upload. It's very easy for the screeners to go thru them...they're all together. We don't have access to these pages...we can only see them sorted by date...which means resubmitted photos are towards the back. But don't dispair about resubmits...probably 1/4th of my finalists are from resubmits, some from over two years ago...and you can bet they were way back on the contest page.
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Mick Burkey |
Ah, yes, Ken, you are so right. I, too, have had re-submits move through the competition. But my main concern about the actual process remains and I would very much like to hear from BP about this. I should also add that I do enjoy the contests and feel it is a darn good part of the BP community. I would just like BP to be more forthcoming about how it all works. But thank you for your comments and for clearning up that one point.
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Sharon Day |
"Has anybody else had success re-submitting straight from their galleries? Just wondering..." Yep, sometimes I upload a batch of photos at the first of the month and submit them later in the month. I've gotten finalists with no comments and people wondered why they hadn't seen them. It was because I had uploaded them a few weeks earlier. Also, I've gotten EP buttons for photos from the previous month when they didn't get one because I resubmitted them. I might question some things about the contest but I don't question whether they see them all or not. I'm sure they do.
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Colleen Farrell |
I bet if enough people wrote BP directly and asked for more specific details about the judging process, they'd eventually state it in some way--either in a private mail or on the site somewhere. But, I think a LOT of people would have to request it via site feedback, not just in the forums. BP seems to be pretty responsive to our requests--at least in the past year that I've been really active on the site.
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- Ken Smith Contact Ken Smith Ken Smith's Gallery |
I know I'll get slammed for this...but is it really that important to know about the process? If I were paying big bucks to join BP, then I'd feel that way..but it's a free, for fun thing...and if they told us...then what fun would it be to speculate on the forums? I'm smiling....
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Sharon Day |
"I know I'll get slammed for this...but is it really that important to know about the process?" Yes :D.
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Mick Burkey |
I don't understand why we can't know the process. What is the big deal here? Unless they are trying to hide something, what's the problem? And what difference does it make if you are "paying big bucks" or not? Don't you want to be part of a contest that is fair? I'm not saying it's unfair, but I am saying that every other site I know of, pay or not, that has contests are very open about their process. Just want the same respect for those entering the contest here at BP.
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- Ken Smith Contact Ken Smith Ken Smith's Gallery |
OK. I surrender. LOL I know BP keeps their finger to the pulse...maybe they'll make it known. I also know they'be been silent on other more serious things...did you get my e-mail?
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Mick Burkey |
Yes, Ken, I got your email and will respond. On a side and lighter note, I'm orginally from Nebraska; born in David City. Go Huskers! It's been a tough couple of years :)
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- Cindy Bendush Contact Cindy Bendush Cindy Bendush's Gallery |
OK - I know I'm not the only one who can't resist asking, what "other more serious things?" Do tell Ken! I think we all want to be part of a fair contest and honest community. I know I do!
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Sharon Day |
"what "other more serious things?" I'm not touching that one with a 10 foot pole :o).
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Steve M. Harrington |
I'm just full of questions. :) This time for Ken. How do you know how BP aligns the monthly images for judging purposes? Is there something I'm missing that would tell me that? Further, I noticed on another thread that you stated that the contest was judged in four stages. Is there some source at BP who has stated that? Please don't take these questions as me being argumentative. I really want to know. I'm asking because I have often seen things become "true" by repetition rather than by being factual.
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
Four stages is correct. The reason we know that is because we used to be able to watch them with a little digging before they blocked us because people kept complaining about their shots being dropped from a round.
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- Ken Smith Contact Ken Smith Ken Smith's Gallery |
Steve, yes...what Carolyn said...the EPs were the original runner-ups..about 10,000 pictures got them. Then they had three other rounds to get to the finalists (quarter-finals, semi-finals, then finals). Basically, they'd select the EPs thruout the month, followed by the elimination tne month after. I suspect they're doing it the same way..the only difference is that now we all get to see the first round via the EP button...quite a coup on their part, I think, cause it's generated so much more interest in visiting the site and checking on EPs.
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Sharon Day |
I'm SURE they still do it the same way. If you were to go in search of them now you come to a page that dumps you at the homepage again. Somehow they're redirected anyone stumbling upon those links back to the homepage. I'm glad they are gone. I used to spend hours a day watching it. What a waste of time.
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- Nikki McDonald Contact Nikki McDonald Nikki McDonald's Gallery |
Cindy said: Consider what Errik said: when you re-submit from your gallery, your image is placed further back than the currrent entries due to its ID number. I agree it could easily be missed as I've NEVER had any success re-submitting this way! . . . Has anybody else had success re-submitting straight from their galleries? Others have answered this in the affirmative and I'll add a recent experience. I entered a slightly edited, new upload of an old favorite in late November. It did not move on. I re-entered it from the edit section of my member center on December 5. This weekend, on the day that EPs were coming out on other Dec 5 entries, it got an EP. It was clearly seen and judged right along with all the other entries for that day.
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Christina C. Moore |
Thank you. I've always wondered whether or not it is better to resubmit via a new upload or via the edit feature because of how the images appear in the queue. Incidentially, I do feel as if my better images are going past without EPs while there are some EPs that have obvious technical flaws(e.g. a rather unfocused image of a squirrel that got an EP recently-- to name but one example). I wonder whether I should simply re-enter my images next month or count them as water past the mill. However, maybe re-uploading them will help. I should have at least 1 E.P. from the twenty odd images that I have recently submitted over the last two months particularly as I've gotten POTDs on other websites with some of them. (I've gotten none by the way). I certainly have some lesser images that have gotten them. Oh well.... At least photography has awards beyond POTDs and the like....-C2
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Steve M. Harrington |
Thank you, Carolyn and Ken for your responses to my questions. I was aware of the past "insight" into the judging procedures. I think it should be pointed out that it is an assumption to conclude that BP is still using the same procedure. In fact, if you recall when EPs were first adopted by BP, they were in my opinion handed out like food samples in a supermarket. Clearly, there has been a dramatic change in the number of EPs and, arguably, their quality. It seems obvious to me that some procedures have been changed in the Land of Oz. :) Meanwhile, my simple question remains unanswered by BP. Whether the judging process, from EPs to winners, is done by qualified photographers is integral to the quality of the contest we all value. BTW, to me the fact that the competition is free is irrelevant to its value.
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Sharon Day |
Steve, when I first began watching the rounds (Oct 04) about half of all entries reached the Runners Up phase. I'm strictly talking numbers here. Not necessary every member was getting half their entries to the next round. If there were 30,000 photos entered then there was about 15,000 photos moved to the next round. Same thing with the next phase. They were cut by about half again. If the EP is the same thing as RU then it really doesn't mean much to get one except that the photo made it to the next round. Lately few of mine are making it to the next round whereas when I watched the RU way back when most of my photos did make the next round. Hard to say what they're doing different but it does seem like things have changed since the time when I first became aware of them.
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- Cindy Bendush Contact Cindy Bendush Cindy Bendush's Gallery |
Thanks Niki ~ Was the image you re-submitted recently passed over in late November(ie, the 28th or 29th)? Seems that happened to a lot of people, including myself. I re-submitted (re-uploaded) my new mini pic which was passed over on one of those dates and it now has an EP for December - same category. When I wrote the support team about re-submits all they said was that regardless of the image number, it would be viewed with the rest of the entries on the day you choose to re-submit. Therefore, how one chooses to re-submit shouldn't be an issue. It has just been my personal experience to have better luck re-uploading.
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David W. Orias |
Maybe I shouldn't contribute any more to this thread as I am a relatively new member, but I thought I would add a few thoughts. First, the doubt expressed by members who are concerned that they regressing in their photography because they are not getting an EFP is most unlikely unfounded. It would appear based on older member's observations that there has been a shift with regards to the EFPs. I guess I would ask the question what people think is the appropriate number of EFPs that should be awarded to the 30K+ number of submissions? Too high a number and they lose any real value, but this must be balanced with the encouragement that members feel when they get one. I don't pretend to know what the answer is with regards to how many should be awarded in a month. There will always be some level of subjectivity whether it is BP staff who is picking or one of the photography faculty. The nice thing is that people are allowed to resubmit to allow a sort of "appeal". I may be wrong, but I feel, in some members here, a sense of frustration or angst about the situation. I just want to reiterate that getting fewer EFPs doesn't mean you are regressing as a photographer. WIth more members and more photos submitted, the contest will be harder and one should take that as a challenge to improve in what you photograph or take some chances and expand into another type of photography. Whether you get an EFP or not, you will improve your photography in the process which is the best outcome.
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Colleen Farrell |
"I guess I would ask the question what people think is the appropriate number of EFPs that should be awarded to the 30K+ number of submissions?" It seems reasonable to expect about 50% would make EFP, if they still have 4 rounds. I guess that's why I feel more bewildered/bummed if I don't get an EFP; to me, it says it's not even "worthy" of that first, huge cut. (I don't get really bummed, just a little bummed, lol) And of course, I've resubmitted and gotten the EFP, although none of my resubmits have gone farther than that, so far. "With more members and more photos submitted, the contest will be harder" Very true ... if you look back at the earliest contests, I'd guess at least 40% of those photos wouldn't win today.
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Christina C. Moore |
Actually, I think that my photos have gotten much better as of late despite the lack of EPs. I guess what I am finding a bit disconcerting is when I can click on the editor's pick feature and see images that are completely off focus or that are not all that great. Most of the time, the editor's picks are quite good, but there are some cases where I just have to say hummm. For example, I was a little irritated yesterday, when I looked and only one image selected was technically proficient. It makes me question what the standards are and why I bother submitting my images at all....C2
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Sharon Day |
"It makes me question what the standards are and why I bother submitting my images at all....C2" It's something to do??? :D
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Alison Krylowski |
I agree with you Colleen. I don't think most of the winning images years ago would win now. The change is quite dramatic actually, it's interesting...and way to go BP for attracting such wonderful talents!
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Christina C. Moore |
You have a point Sharon! I guess my danders are up because I am currently looking at one of the most fantastic galleries that I have seen here at BP. Not one editor's pick. I've never seen a nicer image of a spider. Makes me feel better about my own lack of EPs (not one in two months!). Earlier there was a horse picture that was out of focus... Yet it places? Go figure!
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Jayme S. Hall |
While I'm not new to BP, I just rarely submit anything to any contest. I admit, I didn't read all of this thread, it was way to long. But maybe the caliber of other photographer's images on BP have gotten better, not that yours have gotten worse. Maybe someone mentioned that & because I didn't read the whole thing I might have missed it. But I did see something written by someone that basically stated we should not judge our images based on any particular standard. I believe if we are satisfied with our images then that should be enough :) Aren't we all in pursuit of improvement? I know I am :)No one is perfect, right? :) Please don't stone me :) For some reason today when I added an image, I accidentally requested it be added to a contest. It was a true accident. Darned if I didn't get some editors pick thingy. No idea what it really means :) I'm just happy they added the clud thing, I love them!
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Jayme S. Hall |
Sorry, I meant to type "CLUB" , not clud! These darn fingers!
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Christina C. Moore |
Hi Jayme. I don't stone others, and congratulations on your editor's pick. I am just expressing my angst at some of the crappier images that have somehow achieved that golden medallion, and understand that most of the EPs are excellent images.... I will get over it as soon as I find something better to do with my afternoon... Sometimes we all need to let off a bit of steam (even me). As for EPs, I can not possibly change what I am doing now to suit the tastes of some anonymous editor, and am perfectly happy with the work that I have been doing over that last month. Maybe if I really wanted an EP I could dunk my cat in some milk or dye him green and dress him up like Santa's elf, but that would irritate him and would not contribute to the over all message that I am trying to send through my photography.... Warmest regards.-C2
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Mick Burkey |
Christina, you are bringing up an issue that is exactly my point and why I want to know more about the process. I, too, have seen a big drop in the quality of some images that have moved on in the contest and am concerned that if these images are in and better ones are out, the pool of pictures moving on in the contest has been diluted. I have not seen any of these images make it to an award and therefore wonder what is the point? There may be an internal motivation at BP for more folks, regardless of their skill level and the quality of their photos, to receive some kind of recognition that they are getting better. Like those who take their photo courses, for instance. I'm just saying ...
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- Carolyn M. Fletcher Contact Carolyn M. Fletcher Carolyn M. Fletcher's Gallery |
The same question many of us have been asking for years. Sure, they have to be motivated to "spread it around". I guess if we put ourselves in their shoes, we would probably do the same. After all, they are in business to sell classes and websites... And I do think there are a lot of new people who are submitting wonderful shots...but not all of them are getting recognized, and a lot of not so good ones are.
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Jayme S. Hall |
Christina- "stoning" was obviously a poorly chosen figure of speech :) Over the years, I have come to understand that what is hot today soon becomes passe tomorrow. I, like you try not to be really trendy. I want classic images that will stand the test of time. I honestly don't want my images to be placed on posters, the thought offends me on some level. I want my classically matted & framed & hung somewhere where someone views it & enjoys it every day :) I want to be able to consistently produce something special, not capture something by accident. Not that accidents can't be good :) I've had several of those :) I also don't want to have to PhotoShop my photos to death either. I'm just to darned lazy for that :) So I say relax, the cream always rises to the top, eventually :)
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Sharon Day |
"Sure, they have to be motivated to "spread it around". I guess if we put ourselves in their shoes, we would probably do the same. After all, they are in business to sell classes and websites..." Which brings up an interesting observation. I've known people that absolutely think they should win because they have spent money at BP. I knew of a BPer that was convinced they would not win until they took a course or two because they felt the wins had to be "purchased" in a sense. I'm sure BP is sensitive to the fact they need to keep people happy if they want to continue with business as usual and if passing out finalists and wins will keep their customers happy then that's what they have to do to some extent.
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Colleen Farrell |
Well, I think I'm going to write BP directly and ask them if they can at least clarify the EFP issue--who picks 'em and how. That can't hurt. I haven't looked at the EFPs for a long time but I just did and I was amazed. There was one with huge, gloppy Photoshop "cloning" marks on it that were so obvious you'd have to be blind not to see them. And that was only the biggest problem. I'm not recounting this to be mean-spirited--only to confirm that there seems to be something quite odd going on with these picks. (Do you think we should start another thread since this one's so long?)
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Mick Burkey |
First off, I think the length of this thread shows how concerned the members of this site are about this issue. Second, to address Carolyn's comment about being in their shoes, no, I would not "spread it around" at the cost of recognizing good work and my reputation. I understand that this is subjective, but really. I sincerely hope BP is not doing that because that would be, IMO, a big blow to the integrity of the contest and their business. Perhaps they should have separate contests for those taking classes.
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Christina C. Moore |
The stoning was funny Jayme, and you have lots of good thoughts and insights. I am completely in agreement with you. Except for the ps thing.... digital art rules! Mick- your comment was what inspired me to occassionally look at the EPs. While there are some truly outstanding images, there are some definite stinkers in the bunch. This is not even subjective or compositional. Some of the images are off focus.-C2
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Jayme S. Hall |
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