 Jenni Wheeler |
How should l charge for a candid shoot, cd cover a I am a beginning pro photog. I've been asked to take some candids for a cd cover, and possibly booklet photos. My question is how and what should I be charging?
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Mark Feldstein |
Since that's a question that's been asked here about a gazillion times, or so, why don't you start by doing a search (top right hand side of the frame) for things like: Pricing, what to charge, how much should I charge, when to charge, what's fair to charge, should I charge, ad infinitim. THEN if you still have questions, join a local PRO association by paying dues, attend the local chapter meetings and find out what other guys in your area are charging for similar work. Also, joining the national chapter of various associations like ASMP.org, Advertising Photographers of America, and WPA, among others, should help as well. If after all that you want to know what or how to charge, then come back and ask specifically based on exactly what you have to do for the assignment, among other facts that we use to determine pricing. If you want to be a pro, the way to start is to help yourself by doing your basic business research, have a flexible business plan that includes pricing and marketing strategies, among other things. Also have a handle on the law that applies to your business including insurance, accounting and copyright laws and how to manage and sell rights to usage instead of giving it away. THEN start your business. You should also know that professional photographers, even those fairly busy, spend about 80-85% of our time marketing, meeting, selling AND managing our business. Without that plan, statistics from banks, federal agencies like SBA, the Service Corps of Retired Executives (SCORE) along with various teachers and educators tend to say you're pretty much doomed from the outset. All of those outfits can help you if you go to them and ask. It ain't about charging Jenni, it's a whole panoply of events, processes, and steps.
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Mark Feldstein |
One other thing is your question doesn't quite make sense: In the U.S., you can't commercially publish a photo without model releases for recognizable adults and children depicted in the photo. That being the case, the photo isn't candid, is it? Oh and the other 15% of the time or so, that I mentioned in my first response is spent shooting...sometimes.
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Jenni Wheeler |
First of all, Mark, I have no intention of leaving my day job. Secondly, yes, a model release CAN be candid if the pictures are taken under certain circumstances. I was asking because I haven't done THIS TYPE of shoot before. Was just looking for ideas. Not to be shot down. Do you discourage all newbies like that?
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Mark Feldstein |
So, you're agreeing that you DO need a model release for candid shots used for commercial publication. That's as I said. And I specifically said "without intending to be discouraging" and I meant that. So no, I don't shoot down "newbies" but if you're a newbie, you're not a pro yet, now are you? Like I said, you need to do more homework. M.
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Mark Feldstein |
Oh, and BTW Jenni. As a working pro, I can also safely tell you also that this is a tough business that requires a thick skin. Get the picture? Good luck. Mark
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
 In her defense, I think she's talking about taking pictures of a band for a cd cover. She's taking pictures while they're just hanging out. Nothing posed. Not candid in the usual sense. All advice(including thick skin) was given from the perspective that those that have been successful share(South West Airlines), to unflinchingly face up to and be honest with all shortcomings. Even as a beginner, to be called a pro and to ask for pricing in what is really an amateur based help forum aren't two things that vibe well.
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Jenni Wheeler |
Thanks for the back up Gregory. And you are absolutely right about the hanging out part. Sorry if I didn't understand the piece about not asking for pricing. Didn't realize it was such a loaded question. Again--sorry for the misunderstanding folks--J
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Try to take Mark's advice not as a put down. He really is just trying to give you a good idea as best as he can that a q&a section will allow, that there is so much more that you're going to come across trying to get a career(which is different than getting paid) in photography. Mark understands the euphoria that comes when somebody wants to pay you. You've been in Best Buy and looked at cd covers, felt you could do that, now you have an actual opportunity. Now this band will tell somebody, people who buy the cd will look at the photo credit, then it'll lead to another band, and grow from there. Mark's been there, done that, seen the potholes, drove right into some. He knows how that euphoria can disappear when you're waiting for another paying gig.
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Darlene Christensen |
Jenni...check out a software program called "fotoquote"...it will help you figure out what to charge. I just had someone use one of my images for the front and back of his CD. It helped me. It seems you got more of an answer than you were looking for...good luck! Darlene
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Mark Feldstein |
Apparently Greg has quite a bit more insight into your project than I did. Nonetheless, I'm sure he too has driven over similar roads as he correctly notes that I have; hit the same potholes and we've both run into concrete walls as well. And unfortunately, we know that one CD cover does NOT a pro photographer make. It's fine to do this for the fun of it and even to get a byline if you can get one, but things change when you make a deliberate effort to do this as a career "professionally". Taking pictures can be fun. Running a business for yourself can be fun AND also a royal 24k gold headache, depending on how you do it and how proficient you get to be at it. It's also work. A LOT of work. Don't get me wrong Jenni. As a photojournalist, both as a staffer and at times, a self-employed photojournalist, I wouldn't trade the experiences I've had, especially the people I've been privileged to photograph, meet and work with, for anything. But remember, work is still ...work. Starting slow is a good idea. Having your pricing strategy worked out well in advance is pretty important stuff so the next customer doesn't try to lowball you based on what you charged (or didn't charge) the first guy. Seewhatimeanhuh? And as far as what to charge, that's based on a myriad of factors including what your time is worth, depreciation on equipment, all the costs, time AFTER the shoot and before, press run, size, distribution and where, etc. So as I said, look around here for related threads, join associations, and talk to other pros in your geographic area about pricing for this kind of work. Chances are it'd be a real eye opener for you. Using web sites like the one Darlene mentioned, will get you into the basic ballpark, but it's just one of many factors to be considered in a pricing strategy. And when I say "good luck" as well, I mean that sincerely, actually.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Always willing to help somebody that prefers real maple syrup over the cheap maple flavored high fructose corn syrup.
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Jenni Wheeler |
Thanks to everyone for all of the advise. Mark-sorry if I sounded so defensive..just nervous about the shoot. I appreciate the no sugar added response more than I may have let on. Gregory-pure maple syrup-mmm Thanks again guys.
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Jerry Frazier |
Like Mark, I'd have to ask alot of questions. I do these all the time. Typically, for a band shoot and photo credit for the CD, and one image, I'd charge $75 ($75 per high res image with photo credit). I have my reasons. If the band is backed by a record label though, it's more like $25k minimum. Don't ask why, just accept it for what it is. If you want to know why, seek out Mark's advice above.
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Mark Feldstein |
Pancakes made with real Baileys Irish Cream AND (Greg, check this out) REAL Canadian maple syrup at Costco, 1/2 gal, (ready for this.....) $16 bucks for a half GALLON !!!! I'm there. M.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
$16 for half gallon Canandian, and it's not a sting operation, that's a deal. I think you can tell her why Jerry. Record company means wider distribution, more important client, more uses for the photos, more money. New band means low distribution, no much budget, less money. And Jerry being a musician himself, maybe he has his compassionate beginners prices. Besides, low balling is the beginning of people trying to make you go even lower. And it'll get in the way of you charging more when you are able to deliver more. Remember that people being excited about you having a lower price isn't gratitude to you, it's strictly for themselves not having to spend money.
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Jerry Frazier |
Gregory, Having been a musician, I can tell you that it's all I could do to afford guitar strings. Also, most of these guys playing out of a garage give away 99% of their CD's as promotion. So, thus the credit on the back could help. But, mostly, I do it because someone did it for me when I was in a band, and I'm just kind of paying it back. I dig it, I enjoy it, and I'll keep doing it. I do it sparingly, though. It's not like I'm out there doing one a week or anything. I do a few a year for fun, for me. I also do them with the bands telling them that due to the fee structure, I get to do whatever I want. So, it's really kind of like a little side project for me that I enjoy. But, if there is financial backing, it's no longer fun, and it's work. And, therefore, an appropriate charge for that work will apply.
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