 Allen Staley |
Which first? Jpeg or Tiff I shoot jpeg and upload into P.S. 7 to process then convert to tiff to send to the lab to be printed. Should I convert to tiff before I process in P.S. to receive the best tiff quality? Allen
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David A. Bliss |
When you say convert, I am assuming you mean you "save as". It doesn't matter, as long as you are opening your original jpeg in PS, then saving as a tiff. I'm sure you know this, but never save over your original jpeg. Keep it as a master image, so you can go back and rework if necessary. While PS can open many different file types (jpeg, tiff, psd, etc...), it is "converted" to PS's native file type when opened, which is PSD. It doesn't really matter what type of file you open, it is only important on what file type you save as. I hope this made sense. I can't seem to quite get the words out the way I would like! ;-)
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Pete H |
David, I think you are incorrect on one point. If you open a JPEG in PS, it opens as a JPEG; not psd. *.psd is used when saving the "layers" or a "scale" function etc... Essentially, *.PSD saves the changes you made to the image. JPEG is "locked" in with no further "undo" function.
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David A. Bliss |
Only once the jpeg is saved. If you open the jpeg back up in PS, you absolutely can create layers, undo, or any other editing, because it is no longer a "jpeg," it is just pixels in the program. When PS opens a jpeg (or any other non PS file type) it doesn't care. It displays the pixels. If it is a jpep, it reads the compression algorythm to be able to display all of the pixels accurately (as accurately as it can). To further this point, open a full size jpeg from your camera. I will use my 10D as an example, simply because I know the math. The 10D produces an 18 MB uncompressed file. If I shoot with jpeg (or raw, for that matter), open it in PS, then save with an uncompressed file type (such as tiff or psd) at 8 bits/channel, without any cropping, it will save as 18 MB. If I take that jpeg and first save it with a compression level of 2 (very high compression), then open it in PS and resave it as a tiff, it will still be an 18 MB file, even though it had a lot of compression when I save the jpeg. PS really only cares about pixels. So, in a simple sense, when PS opens an image, it "converts" it to PSD, which is it's native file type. File type only matters when you save.
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Allen Staley |
Thanks David & Pete for your responses. Maybe I wasn't very clear with my question. I shoot with a Nikon D80 which is a 10megpixel file camera and I always use the highest Jpeg setting which the file size is around 4 meg. If I convert that file to a tif my file size is gonna be around 20meg give or take a few. I then take that 20 meg file and make my levels adjustments and etc. then save the file again in tif will that be a better quality picture than just taking the original jpeg file (4 meg)and doing my adjustments then saving as a tif?
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David A. Bliss |
It doesn't make any difference. Converting to a tiff, just to open in PS is just creating an extra and unnecessary step. Open the jpeg, do your adjustments, then save as a tiff. Just be careful to not save over the original jpeg (accidently hitting save instead of save as). If you are shooting at highest jpeg, which is a resolution of 3872 x 2592, your tiff file will be 28 MP.
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Pete H |
I can see what David is saying. I think some of Allen's confusion may be in SHOOTING in TIFF or RAW Vs shooting in JPEG. I agree with David, it makes no difference and you are going thru a extra unneeded step. If you are shooting in JPEG and "saving as" TIFF; you have not gained anything. The "information" when shot in a JPEG is "locked" in. It has already been compressed and processed and it is 8 bit. Period. You can sure convert if you want to, but your TIFF is still a 8 bit image. Now if you shoot in RAW, (16) bit, in reality 12 bit, you have much more "information" to work with, hence; a higher quality original. The data is not "locked" in. Sure you could save this as a tiff now; but why would you? When I shoot JPEG or RAW; I ALWAYS "save as" (PSD) IF..IF I made corrections and manipulations via layers or scaling. I can not for the life of me understand why anyone would "save as" TIFF given todays formats. TIFFS are gigantic in file size!
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Allen Staley |
Thank you David & Pete! You have answered my question. So I'm doing myself no good by saving my jpeg file as a tif because the infomation will not be any better just a huge file size? One reason I converted to tif was so after converting I would not have to worry about resaving to the jpeg. I always save the orignal jpeg straight out of the camera to a cd then begin to do my work on a copied file. Didn't know the exact tif file size of the 10 meg camera I know I used to have an 8 meg camera and I know it was around 20 meg. Thanks again guys for the help and information. I may start shooting some raw and comparing some of my jpeg files I have shot raw with a previous camera before and compared them after adjustments and I couldn't see much if any change. Allen
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David A. Bliss |
Ok, I will try to be a bit more clear ;-) I have been pretty busy and haven't been able to devote much attention to my responses... Jpeg. To some it is a dirty word. Do a search on this forum for jpeg vs raw and you will find a lot of opinion, fact, and myth. If jpeg works for you, and you don't see any difference between raw and jpeg in what you are doing, by all means, keep shooting jpeg. If the jpeg comes out of the camera and doesn't need any post work (adjusting in PS), then don't convert it to tiff. Again, do not save over the original jpeg. You can simply send the jpeg to the lab without converting. If the jpeg does need post work, then simply open the jpeg in PS, and do your processing. Save as a tiff. If you want, you can save the tiff with layers. This will increase the size of the file, but allows you to go back and adjust an individual layer, instead of having to start from scratch. The tiff does need to be flattened to send to the lab though. While jpegs are not as evil as some would lead you to believe, they do save with lossy compression. This means when you save it, it compresses the file, and can cause the image to lose quality. Again, there are many discussions on the merits of jpeg, and how much quality they truly lose when saved at the lowest compression rate, but saving in an uncompressed file format takes away any possibility of it. For what it's worth, this is my workflow. I do shoot in raw most of the time. I open the raw file in Camera Raw in PS, do any raw adjustments, then open it is PS. I then do any further processing that is necessary. Once I am done processing, I save as a PSD. PSD is PS's native file format, so it eliminates any chance (however small) of there being any problem with PS interpreting the pixels correctly when it opens the file. PSDs are uncompressed, and allow saving with layers, just like a tiff. Once I am ready to send the image to the lab for printing, I flatten the image (if it isn't already), then save as a jpeg with the lowest compression. I then upload the jpeg to the lab. This is my workflow, and it works for me. Others might have different workflows, and they are just as valid. As for what was said earlier, I need to clarify. I think Pete and I just aren't quite on the same page ;-) A jpeg cannot be saved with layers, so once you save a jpeg, it is a flattened image that has had some compression (even if it is very little). A tiff can be saved with layers, so further adjustments can be made to the individual layers. Pete and I were both right, just on different wavelengths ;-) BTW, a tiff and a psd will be the same file size. Any uncompressed file type will save at the same size, because it is save pixels. It is pure math. File size = (((width x height x bit depth)/8)/1024)/1024 Hope this helps!
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Allen Staley |
Thank You so much you have clarified some very important issues and thanks for the math I have always wondered how the exact math was on figuring out all of these file sizes. I will copy and paste this info in word file and save it for future use. I'm sorry for bugging you guys but I have one more issue I'm dealing if you could help with this I'll be on my way! I have just put up a web-site of our Photography and the pictures I have up loaded just don't seem to be the quality that I was expecting. Not knowing the best way to size and get decent quality I just used a generic program (Picasa) and saved my corrected tif lab files (various croped sizes anywhere between wallets up to 8X10)to the web size that Picasa determined (most were less than 100K). Well to make a long story short the quality is poor and pixelated. If you could go the my web-site and look at them and give me an ideal on what size I should make them it would be most helpful. Here is my web-site address: Thanks, Allen
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David A. Bliss |
Allen, I am not seeing anything that is looking overly pixelated, but I didn't spend a lot of time looking. If the jpegs are pixelated, it is because of compression. Too much compression on a jpeg will cause it to become pixelated.
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Allen Staley |
I beleive I used the wrong word for explaining the look that I see on my screen. I beleive mottled would be a better word to explain what I see on my screen, discoloring in the face especial in some but not all of the pictures. Did you go to the family portrait page and the senior outdoor and indoor pages? After you go to senior portraits scroll down to the botton and click on senior outdoor portraits or senior indoor portraits and you will see more of what I'm talking about. If you thing they are ok then it must be me or my screen. Allen
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William Schuette |
Allen, generally "mottling" on a jpeg is a compression artifact. You have to remember that every time you resave a file as a jpeg it is re-compressed. It does not take too saves to result in noticeable artifacts. For what it is worth, here is my work flow, 1) I save a copy of the original Raw file that I can always go back to, 2) I edit in Capture NX or CS3 and save as an uncompressed layered (NX doesn't really have layers but it acts similarly) file in NEF, PSD or TIFF format, 3) for any file I print, I start with the edited file and adjust saturation, sharpness, etc. for the file and printer I am using and the print size and when the print is sucessful I flatten the layers (if using CS3) and save in an uncompressed format with a name that indicates the print size and paper the file is maximized for. If you are stuck on using jpeg, save your initial file as it comes out of the camera as a master file. Then any time you want to edit the photo start with this master file. try to avoid editing files that you have already worked on because the multiple saves increase compression artifacts. Bill
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Allen Staley |
Thanks, Bill. I appreciate your answer. It is most helpful. I will try your advice next time. Allen
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