 Nathan Clarke |
royaltys for images in book I have been asked by a friend to take a few pictures for a book he is due to publish next year. We are a disscussing perecentage of sales fee , but should I also charge for doing the actual shots(in case the book doesnt sell). Ans also theres is likely to be a long period between me doing the shots and the book being published. Once again I am completely new to this! any advice at all would be really appreciated thanks
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Mark Feldstein |
The best way to handle that isn't to make you a partner with royalties but rather as a photographer charging a fee for service and usage fees for each photo used in each edition of the book; e.g., first North American rights, or first world wide rights, etc. And, the usage fee also depends on the size of the finished image AND the number of copies printed per each edition. Look at this survey to get a very very ballpark idea of what a professional would charge for this kind of work and make sure you don't sell yourself short. Remember, the following survey is getting a bit stale in terms of age, now about 6 years old. But still valid if you add about 20% to the numbers. http://www.apanational.com/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3290 Take it light.
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Nathan Clarke |
ok thanks. Its tough to be compeltely objective as they are a friend, dont want to feel i'm taking them for every penny. I kind of thought 5-10% of sales , with a flat fee for taking the pics could work out quite well. Is the problem if the book doesn't sell??
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W. |
If the book doesn't sell, you will already have pocketed your flat fee, but you'll be out of your percentage, your 'future earnings', won't you? Your friend, however, will not only be out of HIS 'future earnings', he will also be out of the flat fee he paid you already! So, if I were you, in that case, I'd consider myself lucky*. End of the story. It was a venture. You both invested in it. It didn't work. That's it. *Luckier than your friend!
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Mark Feldstein |
Well, my point Nathan, in getting an actual fee plus usage fees for the work is to take you out of the per-cent profit loop. Yes, if the book doesn't sell all you have is your initial shoot fee. With my suggestion, you have been paid up front without regard to your friend's profits, actual or potential sales. As to your friendship, while I understand that's important of course, this is business. ;>)
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Shawn Wilson |
Yes, like Mark said, taking yourself out of the percent of proffit game is a good step. Although not photography related, I've done several deals in web development where I learned the safest way to approach this kind of thing. That is to say where another person has a product for sale and you as a contributor stand to gain by it's sales volume. A flat initial fee for your time and energy to obtain the pictures in the first place is a lock. Then coming up with a flat rate per use fee for each picture or the pictures as a whole. Say 10 cents per book per picture. (totally made up number, just making the math easy) That way, if he sells 1,000 copies and you have 100 pictures in the book, you get $10,000. How is that better than say, 5% of profits? Well "profits" are a large variable. What if the book doesn't move fast and they drop the price down so that the "profit" per book is only 10 cents? Then you're only getting a dollar for every 200 books that get sold. When you run the theoretical numbers, it's always worth more to do a percent of profit, because we all dream about the 5% of a billion in sales. But in the real world, often times profit is a subjective term that people specifically focus on making small for tax reasons. Profit is largely reported after every last concievable expense is subtracted from sales. Get a flat rate for the shoot, and a flat rate per book published, reguardless of profit. He'll add that to the raw cost of the book and you'll be fine regardless of what they decide to sell the book for. If you're willing to be more of an investor (remember that invest = gamble), then you can go the percent profit route, but that's the kind of stance that a seasoned vet usually takes. Us newbies need to stick to more solid earnings so we can afford to grow. Flat fees might make you cry if the book actually does sell massively, but then your name is out there credited massively as well, and a second book may be coming... for which you can make a new arrangement. *smile*
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Nathan Clarke |
I know I ultimately I have to decide ,but I really have no idea about roughly how much I should charge in terms of usage. It will probablyu only be a about 8 images in the book ,maybe a5 size. And probably estimating they would sell 1000 copies , can anyone giv3e me a ball park figure what to charge per picture? Thanks
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Shawn Wilson |
Well, as Mark said, you can refer to the AMA survey. Although there isn't a direct book price listed, there are catalogue prices listed. I don't fully understand the pricing though. It's labled as "Single Use Fees" for 12 months media usage for a "Single Image" used as the main illustration. The price listed for a national catalogue is $150 per image in Atlanta, 12 images per day, 250,000 printings. National average is $240. I don't understand the 12 images per day part though. You said 8 images, so $1,200 per book, but then do you multiply that by 365 for a year's fee? Maybe Mark can shed some light on that for us. In the mean time, have you called any local photographers (or not so local for a comparison) and asked them? Pretend you're the book writer and see what they'd want. That'll give you a base of comparasion.
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Nathan Clarke |
well I definately understand now how charging for usage is better , just seems quite complicated to calculate(intially, I guess then it gets easier in the future!). But, do I charge for the images in every book published OR do I charge for every book actaully sold. EG. if he prints 1000 copies and sells only 500 . DO I charge for 1000 images used(1000 published/printed) OR do I charge for the 500 Images just in the books sold)? Sorry i'm probably making this more complicated than it is. Thanks
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Nathan Clarke |
OK I'm sorry .i'm just really confused as to what to even start to charge . I have check ed the AMA but dont know how to relate it to use in a book. My friend has asked to use 1)8 images 2 * 8*10inches , 6 * 11*10 inches 2) 12/14 images for calender 12* 10 inches Sorry i'm not asking anyone to tell me how much I should,charge but if you could suggest a ball park figure per image or book that would be great. Do I need to get any more information from them(how many copies they will print?) to come up with a figure? Is there a set amount of time for usage normally?)Thanks Again Nathan I understand this could be asking a bit much ,but if anyone can give me some advice that would be great
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Raymond H. Kemp |
Unless I missed the answer in a response here already, I’ll ask the question; who is publishing the book? Your friend may be the author and someone or some company may be the publisher. I ask this because my images have been published in three books and in all three publishing’s I negotiated a flat fee from the publisher and not the author. Unless of course you enter into an agreement with the author for him to fork over some of his royalties to you. I also checked with my grandfather who has written a dozen books or so in California and he too said the images in his books were paid a flat rate from the publisher, not him. Don’t know if any of this helps, but it might give you something to think about. Ask your friend just who is picking up the tab for your work, him or the publisher? You may need to negotiate this with the publisher.
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Mark Feldstein |
Okie dokie; First, Shawn, the single use fees for a 12 month buy refer to a single publication running an ad with your photograph printed for 12 months. There could be multiple publications using a single image over a period of whatever number of months. Think of the old Marlboro ads, one photo run in the same ad that appeared in say a dozen publications over the course of a year. Time, Newsweek, Life, U.S. News, Look Mag, etc. I think in part, you guys may be confusing creative fees with actual usage fees. Creative fees are what you charge for the shoot and producing the image. Depending on how you price, they may include the use fees for the first usage or maybe not. Depends on your publisher and how they like to see the charges priced out on your invoice or usage memorandum. Usage fees per image, in the magazine biz, are based on the total circulation of the publication, paid and unpaid circulation, btw, the size of the printed image, and how often that image has been used (if at all) in the past. First North American publication rights for an image used to illustrate a display ad, cost the ad buyer more than say 23rd North American Publication rights of that same image. In other words, the more it gets used, the less value it has for usage fees. Now, for books, as I tried to explain yesterday but my response got dumped, you really ought to be negotiating directly with the publisher rather than the guy who's writing the book. Only 2 things I can think of would obviate that. (1). He hasn't got a publisher and he's doing this whole thing on spec that he'll find a publisher or (2), he's self-publishing and paying the whole tab himself from type setting to printing and binding costs. Depending on which kind of publisher is involved in this will likely impact who you need to deal with and how much you'll get. Dealing with a vanity publisher ain't gonna pay the same as say Doubleday. It also depends on the kind of book the images are used for. Fiction vs. non-fiction, whether the publisher could get the images from a stock house like Corbis or a microstock outfit. I'll tell ya Nate, I think you need to get some more info from this guy like who the publisher is, the name of his editor, the number of books to be printed in the first press run, whether this is a commissioned work or if he still shopping for a publisher, whether he has an agent negotiating his fees for writing the book and whether that agent can work for you in terms of the photography or hook you up with a photography agent-rep to do it for you, ad infinitim. So, you wanted to be a photographer eh?
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Nathan Clarke |
thats a great help, mark. Basically I think I was complicating the matter by trying to workout a price when I really didnt have enough information to do it! I've asked him for more info about publisher. Thanks again (to you and everyoine else who gave me advice).
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Mark Feldstein |
My pleasure Nate. Any time. BTW, I think the best question you can ask him is whether he does have a publisher and just tell him you'd prefer to negotiate directly with them based upon his recommendation that you do the work, which is pretty important to your friend, his publisher and you, of course. :>) Enjoy the weekend.
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Nathan Clarke |
Sorry If it seems i'm asking the same questions over again ! I have foudn this very simple image price calculator. That simply asks the type of publication(book,magazine,newspaper etc), Size of image repro & Print run (very approx up to 10,000 , 10-20,0000. Based on the variables being a consumer book, with full page reproduction & a Print run of UP TO 10,000 (seem very broad category!) it estimates should charge between 300-$550 per image ? Does that seem about right? Obviously I have to charge my fee for actaully taking images on top of that BUT for 8 images ,say about $400 each ,that would be about $3200 !!!Does that sound anywhere near right ? Obvioulsy that would just be for first edition,if he prints a 2nd edition ,he must pay again. I think he is self publishinh but am still confirming that. But if that sounds ABOUT right please let me know(another zero on that fee or one less , I have no idea!))). Thanks Again
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Nathan Clarke |
Sorry If it seems i'm asking the same questions over again ! I have foudn this very simple image price calculator. That simply asks the type of publication(book,magazine,newspaper etc), Size of image repro & Print run (very approx up to 10,000 , 10-20,0000. Based on the variables being a consumer book, with full page reproduction & a Print run of UP TO 10,000 (seem very broad category!) it estimates should charge between 300-$550 per image ? Does that seem about right? Obviously I have to charge my fee for actaully taking images on top of that BUT for 8 images ,say about $400 each ,that would be about $3200 !!!Does that sound anywhere near right ? Obvioulsy that would just be for first edition,if he prints a 2nd edition ,he must pay again. I think he is self publishinh but am still confirming that. But if that sounds ABOUT right please let me know(another zero on that fee or one less , I have no idea!))). Thanks Again
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Nathan Clarke |
Should I charge for ever copy of the book they print or JUST every copy they sell. I think its every copy they print right? thanks Nathan
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Mark Feldstein |
Well, that sounds pretty low actually. I'd like to look at that calculator you mentioned and see what their survey demographics are. It's like the difference between Microstock and Corbis, Getty or Magnum Photo images. I'd be really surprised if this guy has a real publisher. It sounds to me like he's going to be vanity or self-published. And he'll likley have a minimum press run of 1000 copies or less. If that's the case, I'd charge him $800 bucks per image for shooting, that's a creative fee of say $500 bucks per shot plus $300 bucks in usage fees per run of 1000 copies (or as we say in the biz "1M" copies). That works out to about 30 cents per full-page photo x 8 photos (per book) = $2.40 to you for each book printed, (never sold) plus the shoot fee per each image. So, that's $4000 in creative fees, $2,400 in use fees for the first edition and North American or Worldwide (distribution) rights. I think that's pretty fair for a first time author self-publishing. Low, but fair and that's only if he's doing this on his own and self-publishing. These rates would NEVER apply to a publishing house. If it went to press for a second time (which is going to depend on the sales from the first press run), charge him the same usage fee rather than a percentage. The reason is because the unlike a publishing house, the press run would be so low the first run, that you need to make up the usage fees for the low first, in the same fees for the second. Lastly, tell him additional consult / creative fees will be billed at the rate at $75 per hour, payable when the work product is delivered. OK?
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Nathan Clarke |
are that makes it a lot clearer. heres the calcualtor I used http://photographersindex.com/price-ed-calc.htm yes on top that i'd charge my own fee for the job. thanks again. I'll keep u posted;0)
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Shawn Wilson |
I'm curious now... if those rates would never work with a publishing house, then what would? Does the price go down dramatically when dealing with a publishing house or up? (I'm guessing down since they have experience with stock images and they'll just dump you and go with what they know for cheaper?)
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Mark Feldstein |
Hi Shawn! You really ought to have a subscription to Photo District News and be reading it. Especially the November, 2006 issue. Here ya go: http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/index.jsp Mark
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Nathan Clarke |
Hello again, its been whiel but things are actually moving now with the book! I decided on my creative fees in region $2500-3000, but on the usage fees the book will only be retailing at about $4 , and the profit intially I have been told will be about 40 cents. So my friend(sorry hes a client! ) says he could only pay about 0.15 per book(for 8 images) ,lloking at a test run of 2-3000 copies , then 10,000 for future editions. Do you think thats fair considering the slim profit margin hes making at this stage. So is that the cost of markerting and selling a book after marketing and printing etc (only 40 cents profit from $4 shop price tag!). Hey Mark if you are still out there , hope you can help or anyone at all. Thanks
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Mark Feldstein |
Howdy Nate ! Do I think 2 cents or so per image, per book is fair? No. But the central issue is what do YOU think?? I don't know anything about this particular book, but it seems to me that $4.00 per copy with a 40 cent profit is waaaaay too little, even for a vanity publication. In other words, I think his profit margin is too small considering the work involved in putting any
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Nathan Clarke |
thats greta thanks. I pitched my creative fees at the top end of 2-3000 and am counting anything on top of that as a bonus ! The 15 cents is the very minimum he may pitch the book at $5,6,7 in which case i;d get a bit more. Its a first venture for this guy too so his profit margins are really tight. I am still learning to so its good experience for me, i;m jsut making sure I get my creative fees upfront before giving out any pictures, and then will see how it goes from there ! thanks again
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