 M J |
New Photographer - Free Photos To Build Portfolio? Hi everyone, I am photographer's assistant for a very new photographer (my boyfriend) who has only done 2 weddings and 6 bridal portrait shoots. All free. Only 1 wedding and 4 bridal shoots produced photos for the portfolio. My question is... when do you charge for photos? I have 200% supported this photography career, found the brides, helped with the shoots, built the web site, etc and he is a WONDERFUL photographer. But he doesn't have a degree yet (only on Chapter 3 of his first course) and his portfolio is limited. We're at odds because he's frustrated that he's giving away work for free and not getting any paying clients and I'm frustrated because I think he's charging way too much (almost $2K) for a wedding when he doesn't have the experience to back up the price. Nevermind he's a great photographer, he really is, but he has nothing to show that he's a great wedding photographer except for 1 wedding that turned out well (the other was "hokey" and not the "clientele he's looking for" - this bride BTW is my sister). I say get some weddings under his belt - brides are taking a chance with him too. So now I'm unsupportive, etc when I'm really trying to help. I'm afraid I've been too supportive and created a monster. Am I being realistic and helpful or unrealistic and negative? I'm afraid that he'll give up his dream (and yes, his dream, I am not pushing it and have told him so a hundred times that I don't care what he does as long as he's happy)... anyway, I'm afraid he'll give us this dream out of frustration rather than start out more conservatively, pay his artistic dues and build his portfolio. Is it common for wedding photographers to do several freebies to build their portfolios? At what time do you start charging?
|
|
|
|
||
|
Kerry L. Walker |
"My question is... when do you charge for photos?" You charge for photos when someone is willing to pay for them. I guess I am a little confused here. You say he is shooting for free and then you say he is charging $2,000.00. I assume you mean he wants to charge $2,000.00. Going from free to $2K is quite a jump. Depending on where you live and what the going cost of wedding photography is in that area, he might want to re-think that price. In some areas of the country that is dirt cheap. In others, it is the top of the market. Instead of doing any more for free, he might want to do a few for cost plus a little profit (only a few). After that, he should start charging whatever he can get. I am not a big proponent of shooting a lot of weddings for free just to build up a portfolio. One or two is OK but beyond that you are just letting someone take advantage of you. After all, if someone is willing to trust you with their, hopefully, once in a lifetime pictures, they should be willing to pay you SOMETHING. Forget trying to get the clientele he wants. At this stage in his career, he is just going to have to take what he can get. I wish all my brides were beautiful and the grooms were handsome and the weddings were shot in a cathedral but it just doesn't work that way. I don't know any photographers in my area that cull their clients in any way other than by price. He needs to come down to Earth. He also needs to get some advice from an older established photographer, not just from you. You are his girlfriend and are going to tell him he is a great photographer and he will believe that because he wants to. However, when you tell him his goals are ahead of his experience, he won't listen. (Don't worry, my kids won't listen to me either. My 21 year old is beginning to come around but my 18 year old is still a hopeless case.) Maybe he will listen to someone who is not related and not his girlfriend but who has been there and paid his dues. When did I start charging? - the first wedding I shot. I wasn't planning on getting into wedding photography but one of my teachers asked me to shoot her wedding and I did - and I charged her. The few weddings that I have shot for free were of very close relatives when I offered to shoot for free as a wedding present.
|
|
|
|
||
|
M J |
Thank you for responding. In answer to your questions... He's done 2 weddings, he didn't charge for either. Now he has a price sheet on his site and is adamently against taking any more photos for free. Most photographers, with experience, charge around $800 to $1000 in our area. He doesn't give out prints, the brides must buy those. He uses a digital camera now (used a film camera for the other weddings) so now he's just giving time instead of film and developing. I think he should shoot a few more for experience alone. He doesn't know the service order really (especially not for more elaborate ceremonies such as Catholic or Jewish, etc). And this is the only experience he'd had in shooting photos non-stop. He's used to taking 10 to 15 minutes to set up the tripod, choose the lens, etc. He's taken 1000's of landscapes and other photos, but all as a hobby. He's not done anything professionally except the 2 weddings and the 6 brides and 2 other shoots. He's not been paid for any work yet. I've given up trying to talk to him. I know nothing about photography (I've only been at his side a year and half taking photos every weekend - just for fun driving around). Ok, I don't know much about photography, I am an amateur (will actually be posting my own photos here this week). But I am an artist by trade, have a good eye and have run my own business for many years. I know you don't start out with a new business making a nice salary unless you have proven yourself. Ego does not earn a paycheck. The biggest problem is there is a friend of his who is a wedding DJ. A successful DJ who only works with elite clients. But he bought out this business when it was 20 yrs old and very well established. He never had to do the marketing blitz, the proving himself, the earning the company reputation or finding the clients. He turns business away he's so busy. But he's buzzing in my boyfriend's ear about not "giving away his talent for free". That and so many photography books say not to give anything away. I am so frustrated with him. He is a good man and a good photographer, but I have created a monster. Between this issue and the issue in another question I posted about assistants and phone calls... I've told him that I won't help him with photography anymore. Not because he won't listen to me (what men do?) but because he's being such a pain about it that it's no longer fun. How do you build a portfolio and reputation otherwise? Did you have a reputation in another area of photography before you started shooting weddings? I tried to get him to agree to do a wedding or 2 for half the cost at least if not for free. He says it's not worth his time if he doesn't get paid what he's asking for. I say if he doesn't take the contract then he loses the money, experience, and work for his portfolio and he gains nothing. You are very right, he needs a photography mentor. Someone to encourage him and keep him grounded too. Any idea where we can one of those? I want to point him hear to this board but he's gonna be so mad at me for posting all this! :(
|
|
|
|
||
|
Kerry L. Walker |
There are so many issues here I don't know where to begin. First, I will not question his ability as a photographer. I have never seen his work and ge may very well be a better photographer than I will ever dream of being. I will, however, question his business sense. As the old saying goes, you gotta crawl before you can walk. Well, he's trying to fly before he has even walked. I agree that he should not give any more work for free. He has been there, done that and has the photos to prove it. It is time for him to start charging but he's got to charge what the market will bear, not what he thinks his work is worth. It may very well be worth what he thinks it is but finding the client who will pay that is another story. The fact that he is shooting with essentially no material costs now is irrelevent. The time spent will be even more than shooting with film. However, he does need to start out less expensive. When he gets to the point where he is turning away business he will need to really raise his prices. In fact, he will need to begin much lower than he is and start raising his prices as he gets experience and builds a reputation. (Word of mouth is still the best advertising.) He thinks shooting for less than he wants ($2K) is not worth his time? How much will he make if he is asking more than the market will bear and he is not shooting at all? Think about that. So much for my ideas about his pricing structure. Next suggestion - Give out some prints when he shoots. If he charges very little, just give a few prints and let them buy the rest. If he charges more, give them more prints. If he gives them a full resolution disk, he won't be selling ANY prints so he will need to charge for his shooting accordingly. Shooting weddings is not like shooting anything else. You don't have time to set up a tripod and choose a lens, etc. You have to anticipate the action. You also have to be able to read the light when you walk into a room. Can I shoot w/o flash? If I need flash, can I bounce? (How high is the ceiling? What color is it? Is it textured, slanting, full of exposed beams, etc.?) Gotta check that out on the spot and shoot accordingly. He may be very prepared to do that and he may not. With experience, he will be able to do so. You say he shot the first two with film and now he wants to shoot with digital. Is he ready to do that? The latitude and tonal range of digital is much less than it is with film. I'm not saying it can't be done as many (actually most) wedding photographers have gone digital but it is different and he need to be prepared for the differences. All he has to do there is practice a LOT with the digital camera under the same conditions of a wedding. Regarding the post about the phone calls, that was rude. If he was shooting a wedding, I wouldn't expect him to accept a call. I don't. However, when shooting a bridal shoot, he could have and should have accepted the call if he knew it was from you. He could have told the client the call was from his assistant. Bridal shoots are less hectic than weddings. However, you should have gone together or made sure you both got there well before the clients arrived. You should have both planned better there. Lastly, get off his back! He's not going to listen to you so forget it. (Wouldn't hurt to refer him to this thread though.) If you keep harping on him you are going to damage your relationship, which is, or should be, more important than the photography career. Keep assisting him and keep being supportive but don't get so uptight if he doesn't listen to you. We men are very hardheaded! We do learn from our mistakes though. As far as my reputation in photography before I started doing weddings: I was a school photographer who had been doing photography and developing and printing film since elementary school. My first wedding was a teacher at my school. I had no experience at shooting weddings and I wasn't really prepared to do one but I did (too young and dumb to be nervous) and everything turned out well. Word spread and the work increased.
|
|
|
|
||
|
M J |
Kerry, thank you very much for your response. I wouldn't have called if I wasn't lost. I live in the country, big city driving makes me a nervous wreck and getting lost for so long and being 100% alone when he wouldn't answer my call... just I wouldn't do that to him, or anyone else. Drives me nuts and made me feel like I was a b!tch to expect him to answer the call. I guess our priorities are different. I need to adjust mine so I don't feel used when he doesn't reciprocate. I do need to get off his back and maybe just distance myself from it. I've put so much work and time into his photography career that I feel personally invested and get frustrated or hurt when I get ditched (like the phone call) or feel like he's throwing away his photography career by being so stubborn and unrealistic. But it's not my dream. I have my own dream and my own company that I need to focus on and put all this energy into. He's just so miserable at his regular job and I want him to be happy and I can't make his dream come true for him. If he wants it bad enough, he'll make it happen on his own. If not, well then it's not like he didn't have support or help. He does have a lot of talent, it's just still raw. He's just starting out. Ironic thing is I've been on his case about finishing his web site and he was fussing at me about not being ready to take paying clients. I just knew he'd feel better and more organized once his portfolio was done and he'd have more confidence. Boy did I grossly underestimate the amount of confidence that gave him!!! I miss my nice, sweet, grounded boyfriend I had just 1 portfolio and 2 photo shoots ago. Photography used to be fun. :( Anyway, thank you, Kerry! I feel like less a b!tch now and will give him his space. If you want a new photographer to mentor, let me know! :)
|
|
|
|
||
|
Mark Feldstein |
I'll offer you two general bits of advice DT and then a brief explanation. First, I think you both need to get some counseling, individually and then together, so that you can do some work on where your personal boundaries are and when. Second, (and this may be the bad news), his photographic career seems to be operating on accidental coincidence without much, if any planning. For that, he needs a solid, flexible business plan. That plan should include his current expenses and proposed fees AND a marketing plan and a budget. I think most of the other pros here would be inclined to agree with me when I say that the problem with the "digital revolution" is it seems that half the people who bought them along with photoshop decided that they could be professional photographers and just started to carve out new careers for themselves. Talented photographers these days, are a dime a dozen. The chances of him succeeding whether their talent is raw or nurtured through some kind of formal training, talented photographers without a true business plan and means to implement it, is essentially slim to none. Giving the work away isn't the answer, nor is overcharging. Researching the market he's in, knowing what the traffic will bear and finding his niche in it is essentially to surviving in it. Prospering...that's an entirely different issue. These are the realities he's up against. For now, I think you need to back off and assess exactly what your role can/should be in his business. In addition, if I were him, I'd join a local chapter or two of professional photographic associations and start attending meetings to get to know his competition. AND get some advice on putting together a business plan and the funding for operating it, including, btw, liability and equipment insurance. Take it light.
|
|
|
|
||
|
M J |
I think I gave the wrong impression of his experience. He hasn't had any paying gigs yet but he has 15 yrs experience in photography as a hobby. A very serious hobby. He researches any new camera or lens or other equipment long before he buys it, he had his own darkroom for many years, he's taken photos on 3 continents. He's not new to photography by any means. He just has very little experience photographing people, only 2 weddings and no paying jobs yet. He bought the digital camera because he got frustrated with the cost of film and development, impatience of brides waiting for photos to be developed and he wanted to be able to see his work as he was working. He did not jump into the digital age without much, much hesitation. He enrolled in a course to get a degree in photography because he is serious. He doesn't want to be one of those cheap photographers with a new camera who takes photos of weddings for $200 with horrible results and unhappy brides. I am not disputing his experience in photography itself. I am not saying he's not serious about being as professional as possible. What I am *questioning* is the business part of it. He has no experience in running his own company. I do, but hey, what do I know? I also questioned the norm on phone calls during sessions. Nothing to do with his skills as a photographer. I agree that I have to back off and I have. I'm totally backing off and will no longer have any role in his business. So why did I post here? I needed a little piece of mind that I'm not totally off base. I appreciate your response. Can't say I necessary appreciate the counseling crack but hey I respect your opinion. I should have phrased myself better. Thanks!
|
|
|
|
||
|
Mark Feldstein |
As I indicated MJ, there are some guys (gals too), who will spend untold hours researching a piece of equipment and agonizing over it's price from one dealer to another. Yet, when it comes to pricing something like a portrait or wedding, or a product shot, they don't have the slightest clue of what someone else in the neighborhood would charge for the same type of work. They just throw some price out there and see if it floats. If it doesn't, oftentimes they just keep lowering it until they get the gig or it's nearly free. Us creative types and the wannabes are famous for that. Ask any other creative type. LOL !!! Still, by then, their reputation (especially in small towns) starts getting out, that they'll do it for much much less or free and at that point, their pricing schedule is about as valuable as a chunk of burnt toast because under those circumstances, they'll be hard-pressed to get it. You probably know that's not the way to turn a profit or run a business and maybe your bf hasn't figured it out yet. He wants to shoot and get paid for it. In theory anyway, while he may know how to use a camera, it's how to get paid a living wage for it that he needs to learn. Unfortunately, 15 years as a hobbiest isn't sufficient to teach him how to earn a living at it. At one point or another and in one version or another, a lot of us have seen this before. I call it "the full heart, empty head syndrome". While he may have a lot of the creative and technical skills which are always evolving, he needs to learn business skills, including the arts of negotiating and pricing; he needs to research his own market; he needs a biz plan and it should have some contingency plans built-into it. And all those skills will have to evolve as well. With that, and perhaps in three to five years time with a lot of perserverence and persistence, he has a chance at making it in this biz. Just thought I'd mention it.
|
|
|
|
||
|
M J |
Thank you, Mark. :)
|
|
|
|
||
|
Samuel Smith |
really?
|
|
|
|
||
- Bob Cournoyer Contact Bob Cournoyer Bob Cournoyer's Gallery  |
Mark, Kerry or Sam (not in any special order of importance :-) ), would you recommend any books for the hopeful/non business minded among us? Bob
|
|
|
|
||
|
Samuel Smith |
i can't believe I wasn't the most important?i'll write my own book. ahh.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Jerry Frazier |
"Most photographers, with experience, charge around $800 to $1000 in our area." Who are they? No one in this country does weddings professionally at that price. No where, no how. If you can show me a few websites, I'd like to take a look at them. What he needs to do is drop the idea of an education in photography. Stop, get back any money he can. Go to the nearest university, and enroll in business school. Photography is not about photography. It is about business. He will spend 80% of his day on invoicing, accounting, marketing, selling, advertising, creating an image, name, and niche, etc. 19% of his day will be photoshopping, taking phone calls, meeting clients, etc. And, the last 1%, he will be shooting. I don't know, somewhere around there. You don't shoot very much, and you do alot of other crap. I find it really funny that I went into photography to escape the day to day grind of sitting at a desk all day and doing computer work. And, guess what I do now? You have to have the photo skills. You have to understand your camera and photographic priciples. You have to know what the hell you are doing. But, given all that, the rest is just business like any other. And, you have to plan, forecast, account, manage, adjust, and keep moving. Here's a resource for him: www.digitalweddingforum.com This is THE best resource for wedding photographers that exists. He'll learn more there than he will from any photo course. Cheers
|
|
|
|
||
|
W. |
MJ, from your description I'd say: give up! Don't waste your time and effort anymore, because your boyfriend is not going to listen to ANYone. So he will have to learn the hard way and go flat on his face. If that is the case, it had better happen sooner rather than later, so that you guys can try to pick up the pieces and hopefully start again. Here's an idea for filling the portfolio and getting customers:
|
|
|
|
||
|
M J |
Thank you, everyone! Mark, you made some great points. 3 to 5 years? That's really discouraging but I suppose you're right. Jerry, yes, $800 to $1000. I'd post some links but trying to be anonymous and don't want to list the area we're in. Maybe I'll send them to you on e-mail? I agree with you about the education somewhat. I was very much against his tossing down $1000 on the NYIP course when all he'd have to do is read a book or two to learn the same thing. But it's giving him some more confidence so maybe it was worth it. We'll see. Thanks for posting that link, I'm going to send it to him. W.S., that's a great idea! Well, everyone, thank you very much. I'm still staying out of this photography business now. I'm a web designer and now have 5 wedding vendors as clients so it's hard to not mention he's a photographer or to push his business but I'm staying out of it. If he ever starts marketing himself (I've done all his marketing so far) and he gets serious about pursuing brides then perhaps I'll help get him referrals again. But for now, I can't in good conscience refer my clients to him when I don't know if he's going to take the business part seriously. I sent him the link to this site, he never came here. I told him about it, told him he could post photos and get opinions, etc. Nope, no visit. But he'll spend hours on-line looking up lenses or other hobby stuff. So I suggested that he just make photography a hobby again and give up the business side of it. He didn't like that idea either. I didn't push it. So, I'm just going to stay out of it. Maybe he'll pursue the busines stuff on his own, if he's truly serious about being a photographer. Maybe he won't. Either way, I need to just step back before it destroys our relationship. I'll still ride around with him taking photos occassionally but I won't be helping out with anymore photo sessions (and since I'm not setting them up, there probably won't be any anyway). And I'm going to pursue photography as a hobby myself. Thank you, everyone! :)
|
|
|
|
||
|
Jason R. Fortenbacher |
MJ I can relate to your boyfriends situation in some ways. I have recently opened my own photography business and am in the process of figuring out the ropes of charging usage fees. (Just FYI I specialize in aviation photography -- photographing aircraft, and not to be confused with aerial -- where you photograph the ground from the air) For several weeks now I've been dealing with clients only on a one-on-one basis for individual shoots. But I haven't blindly started doing this. I've read dozens of books from the specifics of the photo business, to strictly business. I've had the technical skills to capture the pictures for years, but didn't have the biz sense yet. I probably still don't, but at least I'm doing my best to educate myself. You have to start somewhere though.
There is a tremendous amout of work that goes into promotions, obtaining a decent portfolio (which is a catch 22 as you're finding out) and learning how to sell yourself.
With the advent of digital photography, EVERYBODY thinks they should get their pictures for free. It is up to each professional photographer to prove otherwise by the way they deal with their clients, and their creativity. Also, don't give up, and don't get discourged. Your boyfriend can make this work only if he is willing to listen to advice, and change some things from time to time. It is one of things that you either put 100% of your work into, or you decide not to go pro.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Scott McCord |
M.J. While I've been shooting in a professional capacity for nearly 12 years, I too recently opened a full studio (open less than one year). And I must agree with everyone here. It's all about the business.
|
|
|
|
||
|
This old forum is now archived. Use improved Forum here
Report this Thread |
||