 Donna L. Cuic |
How much should I charge? I need some guidance...Someone emailed me asking if I would do a series of photos for him but I don't know what a fair price would be for assignment work. Has anyone done assignment work? Do you charge a flat fee? Or charge by the photo. He is wanting a series of photos for a children's book, so I'll need to hire a little girl as a model for my series and I don't know what a fair price would be for my young model. I anyone has done assignment type work I would appreciate any advise you can give. Thanks
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Mark Feldstein |
Yes Donna, there are actually some of us here who make a living shooting assignments. One association I'm a member of is Advertising Photographers of America. They surveyed our members in 1999 and you can download a survey at the link below, which will give you very ballpark prices for assignment work used for various publications including editorial or to illustrate books. My advice to you is look at the survey, calculate a fair price based on the number of books he intends to have printed or negotiate directly with the publisher. Most authors )and publishers to some extent) will try to devalue photographic illustrations and low ball their rates to you. The survey can be found at And depending on how large his press run is, you wouldn't be out of line charging a percentage of his royalty fees and getting that agreement in writing from the publisher, plus a day rate for shooting, AND expenses which include modeling fees, make-up artists, meals, travel, film, processing, lighting rentals, assistant fees, etc. Whether you realize it or not, you're playing in the bigger leagues and you should be careful not to get screwed in this deal and also to make sure you get commercially fair price for your work which protects not only your fee structure but others (like me) who work in this industry on a daily basis. Not to sound arrogant, but your work (at least what's in your gallery here) is good enough, I think, that you should command full professional fees for your work and that we can have this conversation. I also strongly recommend that you join a professional association like ASMP.org or APA national, go to local meetings to meet and talk with other pros in this field. If you're gonna play ball with the big dogs, it's time to get a mitt and get in the game. ;>)) Take it light. Drop me an e-mail if you want to delve into this further. And one last thing: Don;t even THINK about doing this without getting this guy to sign a written contract for the work, the usage agreement, fees, expenses, etc., and a retainer fee before you even put a pixel or roll of film in the camera. And make sure your models are going to appear with a parent or legal guardian to sign a release BEFORE you start shooting. Take it light.
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Donna L. Cuic |
Mark, Such good information I can't thank you enough. I guess this could be bigger than I was originally thinking and I need to so some homework. I'll go to that site right now and do some reading. I might be asking more questions. If so I'll post it here or email you. Thank you so much. ~Donna
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Irene Troy |
Donna, as always, Mark is offering you some excellent advice. As someone who has been writing and being published for a whole lot longer than I have been selling images (years versus months!) I will add another 2 cents worth of advice. Make sure that this guy is planning to or already is in contract talks with a legitimate publisher. There are many, many small publish-it-yourself companies that range in quality from complete scams to fairly decent. There is nothing wrong with publishing your own book yourself, as long as you deal with an honest company. Some of the hallmarks of legitimacy include a very clear and basic contract that spells out, in easy to understand language, exactly what the company will deliver at exactly what price; how the final product (the book) will appear and when it will be made available; exactly what the company will provide – hard cover, soft cover, number of pages, type of paper and what type of promotion packages the publisher will provide (if any). You also want to ensure that the rights to your images are clearly spelled out not only in your contract with the author, but also in the contract with the publisher. You do not want to discover, as a friend of mine did, that you just sold the rights to your images not only for the one book, but to the publishing company for use at their discretion. If the prospective author has yet to have his book accepted by a publishing company – a company that is paying for his book versus one that he has hired to print his book – you need to make sure that your images will remain protected until such time as the author is accepted by the publishing house and a contract has been sealed – this contract will spell out your rights and responsibilities as well as his. The organizations that Mark recommended can help you to understand your rights and how to best protect them as the author moves forward with publishing his book. Finally, once you discover that the guy is legit, that the publisher is legit and that your rights are well protected, pat yourself on the back and enjoy having made it into the big time! Irene
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Donna L. Cuic |
Mark & Irene I asked more questions and sent him a link to a photo of a little girl on my site I thought would be good for the shoot and I got this reply. Hi Donna,
Thanks again for all your input and advise. I truly appreciate your time. ~Donna
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Irene Troy |
Hi Donna – I am probably a little paranoid, my background prior to the past five years, is in clinical social work – primarily with abused children – and my nasty mind reads something such as this letter and sees some red flags that may or may not be justified. I don’t like the sound of “an adult tickling the child”. This may be something you want to investigate further by asking to see the storyline as currently developed. Now on to more concrete concerns: (1) if you visit a bookstore or library you will note that most children’s books (fiction at any rate) are illustrated with drawings, not photographs. There are several reasons for this, not the least of all being the ease of this medium versus the expense and trouble of using child models. (2) this guy has never been published which is not so much a red flag as it is cause for caution and taking things slowly until he has proven himself to you. Is the premise of his book something sellable to a large audience? If you have children, would your kids be interested in the story line? Obviously, this will be age relevant, but you know if your child would/would have been interested. Is the storyline respectful to children today? Publishers will no longer publish (legitimate publishers) books that talk down to or show disrespect for children. Do you like the story he is telling and does it appeal to you? (3) He seems somewhat confused about the difference in one time rights, copyrights and usage fees – not something that is all that troubling since most of us are confused about these things. Listen to Mark’s advice and look into one of the local groups he mentioned for help in this area. (4) Can you check this guy out locally? You may not be able to check out his history in writing, because he has not been published; however, he should be able to provide you with some sort of reference from a legitimate source – educational, religious, and social, etc. (5) How does he envision working on this project and how does he plan to proceed? Anyway, this is my immediate reaction and off-the-cuff advice. Come back when you have more info and let us know what you discover.
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Mark Feldstein |
Well, ya know just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean someone isn't REALLY out to get you. At least according to the sign in the breakroom at the hospital where my wife is a psychiatrist. LOL !!! Maybe you guys can get together and figure out some good meds for me. My spin on this Donna is that writers don't need to do the work twice for draft or any other purposes. Tell the guy to close the window and put you in touch with the publisher once he has one. Publishers nearly always accept the recommendations from their writers for photographers. The "why" is easy. It saves the publisher all the headaches of finding someone suited to the assignment, like YOU !!! Seewhatimeanhuh? So tell the guy that's your understanding. Then I'd offer him a couple of sample shots, with the word "SAMPLE"or "Copyrighted" written clearly across the front. This in itself is a bit irregular but it's like a gesture of good faith. I agree with Irene in that you need to operate slowly and cautiously in this deal. He may be looking for photos that he can give to an illustrator to sketch for illustrations. If that's so, the publisher is going to tell you but you still charge full freight. A friend of mine who's done a few kids books says that whether they're drawings or photos in some ways depends on the text and the age group it's directed to. Yep. Join an association or two. ASMP particularly, or even Editorial Photographers.org. If I were you, I'd also get a year subscription to Photo District News. It's probably the leading industry trade publication for professional photographers in advertising, photojournalism, and illustration work. http://www.pdnonline.com. $65 bucks a year. Cheap if you're serious about the work. :>))) And Irene and I KNOW you're serious about the work. Right ...of course right. He may not know what he's doing, but you can really impress the Hell out of him for knowing exactly what YOU'RE doing. Now, let's see, where did I put that bottle of Lamictyl................ ;>) Latah
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Donna L. Cuic |
Wow Irene and Mark you guys are so great for helping me out. I truly truly appreciate it. Such great information I am going to go check out those websites Mark...Thanks a ton for the link info. Cause I think this kind of assignment work would really suit me. I have a day job and photography is my hobby/job on the side (for now). The day job pays for my hobby cause its an expensive little hobby isn't it, especially when there is so much new equipment that you "got to have honey"...you know. He did send me the script that he wants the photos for and told me it was for a Christian Childrens Book. I don't have kids so I don't know if this is something a small kid would like to read or see. I should ask a friend of mine. Again, I can't thank you guys enough. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! If I find out any more information I'll post it and keep you updated. ~Donna
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Irene Troy |
Donna – hi, again. Mark wrote: My spin on this Donna is that writers don't need to do the work twice for draft or any other purposes. Tell the guy to close the window and put you in touch with the publisher once he has one. Publishers nearly always accept the recommendations from their writers for photographers. The "why" is easy. It saves the publisher all the headaches of finding someone suited to the assignment, like YOU !!! Seewhatimeanhuh? So tell the guy that's your understanding. Then I'd offer him a couple of sample shots, with the word "SAMPLE"or "Copyrighted" written clearly across the front. This in itself is a bit irregular but it's like a gesture of good faith.
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Mark Feldstein |
You know guys, this whole deal just doesn't pass the smell test. In fact, my nose is beginning to detect that well-known Latin phrase, bovenis excrementis if you catch the drift. As I said, putting "copyright" across the face of the image(s) is irregular but under the circumstances you've relayed Donna, I think it's called for to protect your work. At this point, I'd either ask the guy to put you directly in touch with his proposed publisher (for a lot of reasons including to legitimize the viability of the whole project) or tell him to call you when his project has been assigned to an editor for development and put you in contact with them. At that point, I'll lay odds you'll have become somewhat of an expert in this particular area of photography and you'll be much better equipped to deal with these folks on a 1 on 1 basis. Meanwhile, along what I mentioned yesterday, publishers are indeed pleased to meet and work with qualified / talented photographers for one project or another. This gives you a leg up on the competition. BTW, if you haven't got one already, you should take a look at "Photographers Market for 2006" published by Writers Digest Press. Yep. Keep us posted. ;>)
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Donna L. Cuic |
Hey Mark and Irene, I responded to the guy and told him to contact me for the assignment job once he has a publisher so I can be sure my photos are protected with the publisher also BUT I haven't heard back from him. Now I have a new dilema...I have been contacted several times in the past month about this pic. Well the most recent contact is an Advertising company wanting to use it for an ad in a San Francisco Bay Area Sports Magazine and they are inquiring how much it would cost to use the photo. Well I have no clue and I am afraid to quote too much and scare them away but don't want to quote too little as I want what is fair. My husband said maybe I should give it for free as long as my name and/or website are listed in the ad...But I don't know if ad agencies do that sort of thing. Do you have any quidelines or opinions on what would be fair to quote them to use this photo. You know is $100 too much is $20 too little. I just flat out don't know. I am gonna have to take Jim Zuckermans class on making money with photography maybe I would be able to learn something from that class so if I am contacted I will know what to quote people. I remembered the good advice you two gave me before and didn't know where else to turn so I thought you might help me and give me your opinions again. Thanks
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Mark Feldstein |
TWENTY DOLLARS FOR AN ILLUSTRATIVE PHOTO IN A BAY AREA SPORTS MAG??? ARE YOU CRACKED?????? Look Donna, get a GRIP !!! First time North American or Worldwide publication rights of usage, depending on the size could be anywhere from say a thousand dollars on up. Don't think of this as how much it cost you to make the photograph. We're not talking pixel storage fees here. ASK YOURSELF WHAT THE VALUE OF YOUR PHOTO IS TO THE CLIENT plus service and commish fees to the agency finding and placing the photo. You need a lot more info from the advertising agency or the advertiser. The name of the publication would be nice, the size of the ad, whether it runs across the gutter, the total press run (not just paid circulation) and anything else they can tell you. Here's a link to the APA survey from several years ago to get you into the ballpark. The agencies and advertisers are familiar with these numbers and shouldn't be plotzing from sticker shock when you lay them out for them. ;>)
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Mark Feldstein |
BTW, remember if you got that sports mag and found that someone recreated your photo for the advertiser, you've got a case of copyright infringement against them, so at this point, unless they change their layout, they're kinda stuck on you. :>)))) M/
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Mark Feldstein |
Geez, I couldda sworn I left this link earlier: Sorry. Here ya go. http://www.apanational.com/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3290
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Donna L. Cuic |
Gosh thank you so much Mark...you left that link earlier in the thread so I was able to pull it up again...boy I would be crazy to sell it for $20 bucks wouldn't I. I am drafting a response back to him to ask more information. I'll let you know when I find out more information. Thanks again Mark I truly appreciate your opinion. ~Donna
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Irene Troy |
Hi Donna – as always Mark has given you good advice and valuable links. I can’t help you fix a price; most of what I do is combined with articles I write for magazines, etc. and at least for the moment, I remain a better writer than photographer and market my work in that manner. However, what I can add to this discussion is what I learned the hard way: when you are first getting pro work it is fairly common to de-value what you are able to produce. Many of us are conditioned to believe that our work is not as good as what another person may produce. We fear asking for too much money because we want/need the work and we fear that our work is “not that good”. I’ve been very lucky to have a great editor for whom I am currently working. Out here, on the road in the now very cold upper Midwest, it is easy for me to doubt the value of my own work, both writing and photography. However, my editor seems pleased and he recently told me that I am much better than I think I am and that I need to stop under-pricing my work. I think that this advice can serve you well also. Your work is terrific, thus explaining the many awards you have received! Recognize your own worth and price your work accordingly. Self-doubt can be a real road block to our own progress – get over it and ask for what you truly deserve! Irene
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