 Pat Wimpee |
Opinion on questionalble photo I'm hoping everyone can help me with this problem. I'm not sure the correct way to handle it. Yesterday, a mother brought her 15 year old daughter and her two friends to my studio for pictures. They wanted mostly candid type pictures of all of them together. I have lots of hats and boas that I use for props, so they were using them. One of the girls struck a pose with her hand on her hip, and her rear end sticking out while she fliped her boa over her shoulder. The other girl pretended to slap her rear end. I was snapping pictures and while it was a pose I wouldn't do, the mother thought it looked funny and said to take a few more. I did but then changed the subject and started doing some standard poses mostly to get things back under control. Now the kids want to see those pictures in the proofs. I think the poses are not appropriate for that age kid. SO.. that my delemia. Any help or suggestions?
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Bob Chance |
Gee Pat! Seems like you've run into a situation that is arrising more and more these days. The real question is, "How to deal with someone who obviously posseses a low morality". Your unwillingness to show the proofs, let alone your unwillingness to photograph children in that type of pose already suggest to me that you are a person of higher moral standards than your client. While neither I nor anyone else can really give answer as to how best handle the situation, all I can offer to you is that you do what you feel is right in your own heart. However, to protect yourself in the future, you might consider adding something in your contract that states you will not photograph anyone in what you would consider "inappropriate" poses.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
If they want to see them, let them see them. If you got a problem, shouldn't have taken the pictures.
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Pat Wimpee |
The problem I have Gregory is the other parents weren't there. And I guess I was also asking how do you handle that? (tactfully) since it is a business and I don't feel I have a right to inflect my beliefs on others. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had this problem and I'd love some imput not pointless comments.
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Pat Wimpee |
Oh and I'm sorry Robert, I got offtrack. That is a good point to put a clause like that in my contract.
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Sharon Day |
Since you already took the pics and not all the parents were advised of the poses just tell them you aren't comfortable providing those images OR you could tell them you aren't happy with the way they turned out. I've been asked to shoot candids for our church directory. I had another photographer ask me to put every single pic I take on CD because they just want them. I'm ok with that, but I'm NOT giving out the ones that are blurry or otherwise didn't turn out well. If you can do it without compromising yourself, just tell them you didn't like the way they turned out.
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Diane Dupuis |
If you feel really uncomfortable about it just say they didn't work out (too blurry). DDK
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
"I don't feel I have a right to inflect my beliefs on others.I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had this problem and I'd love some imput not pointless comments." And I see it's another case of somebody just looking for agreement. If you didn't like doing that kind of picture, you tell them the other parent may not like that. Try another person with a camera. Hence you don't take the picture. But you went ahead and did what they wanted. So you show them how the pictures look. You can lie and say they didn't come out. But you going to charge them full price? Refund a sitting fee? You want to learn how to handle things since it's a business, seems one thing would be, be upfront with your customer. Great shot, fantastic capture,... so forth and so on.
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Pat Wimpee |
"You want to learn how to handle things since it's a business, seems one thing would be, be upfront with your customer." Now that would be constructive imput. Not just being caustic with your comments. How would you politely say to a customer "I'm sorry that looks like a hooker pose" OR maybe I'm the one who is wrong and none of you see anything wrong with kids doing that type of thing. After all it is a different era. So no Greg, I'm not just looking for agreement but OPINIONS that may differ from my own but are at least HELPFUL.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Obviously, you've never seen a real hooker.
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Sharon Day |
I have to agree with Gregory to a certain extent, but the problem is whether you liked the poses and horseplay or not you already took the photos. You must have an idea what you want to do about the situation. I say do it! Tell them you made a mistake taking those kinds of photos and you were not comfortable with the situation and deleted them. No one can argue with deleting something. They might not like it but if they are gone they are gone. BTW, I've seen hookers in real life and I've seen galleries here where adults who should know better have allowed their teenagers to pose as such. There really wasn't much difference.
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Sharon Day |
BTW again, I've never seen a hooker with a boa and a hat LOL!
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Great shot.
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Samuel Smith |
morality and personal regulation. where as us as adults who may see something as x or xxx,young people see y.they haven't the concept of porno or questionable photography.these fun shots to them are just that.they are not looking thru your eyes and experiences and what you have learned as knowledge. they may not share your opinion of morality or see it as even questionable.are you looking with an open mind or with preconceived notions of what your own morality has decided is right? i turned around once while coaching a 5th and 6th grade girls team to see one of my players on the bench with two basketballs shoved up under her shirt as a great big pair of knockers. she was proud and was just having fun.shall we as adults take that away from them just because of todays society?or personel beliefs? in that I would say if the parent,and I guess the other parents consent with the responsibility afforded by those parents and judgement given to this parent should be given the right to view these photos and pass judgement on said photos. your call,sam
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Sam's having a moment of clarity. Must've switched from Old Spice to Aqua Velva.
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Samuel Smith |
thanks for the chuckle,just don't expect it very often. sam
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Craig Paulsen |
you should never lie to a client, it could come back to haunt you. They might think that you will keep it for yourself or to display it on the internet at a later time. Have the other parents come in all together and if they all agree its ok, then give it to them. If not DELETE. Down here in California, I've seen some bathing suits(or lack thereof) that one wouldn't have worn in my younger days. Now it's normal, people aren't ashamed these days. Just gotta roll with the times I guess.
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anonymous |
I think you are making more out of it than it really is, it isn't like they were naked, but if you really don't want them to have the photos, just tell them they didn't work out.
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Samuel Smith |
hey pat, you might be forgetting one thing? these other parents,if they allow their daughter to go with another parent,and friend,to a photo shoot. the adult is responsible for the outcome.so if the other parents see questionable photos,they might not want to have their daughter associating with? eh craig-never lie to anyone? bummer natalie,pat was having a moriality issue.
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Denyse Clark |
Hmm, interesting dilema Pat... How bad are the pics? Are the girls laughing and being silly in them, or are they serious and look very inappropriate? Regardless, ultimately you have to decide what you are comfortable with. I don't think saying "oh they didn't turn out" is the best option. Be honest- if you're very uncomfortable with them, tell them like some suggested that it was a mistake to take them as you don't feel they were appropriate & you hope they understand. Personally, sounds like kids were just being kids, and if the pics are more silly than anything, I'd probably give them 1 or 2 in their proofs. And now you know, next time nip it in the bud :)
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John G. Clifford Jr |
I think that, in today's world, you have to be somewhat concerned about taking pictures of minors that might be construed as being sexual in nature. Sometimes other adults either don't have the courage, or the judgement, to object to something that might be okay if everyone was of majority age, but are inappropriate for minors. I think you have to be your own guide here, and you need to listen to your instincts. We haven't seen the pictures; you have. If you believe they're inappropriate, if you believe that MOST people would question their appropriateness, then I would be honest and tell the parents that, for various reasons you are not comfortable with releasing the photos, and that you will be destroying the images. If you are hesitant not because of your personal beliefs but because you are concerned about all of the parents being comfortable with the photos, then I'd inform the customer (mother) that you will not release the photos unless ALL of the parents approve them, and that unless all of the parents are in agreement you will destroy the images. I would also be willing to show the other parents the photos ON MY MONITOR so they could make a judgement as to whether they want such a photo with their daughter in it to be available. And finally, I'd get the approval of all of the parents IN WRITING. Re Sam's comments pertaining to a 6th grade girl putting basketballs under her shirt, I feel that this is inappropriate behavior and I would have said something to the girl, in private, about thinking before doing. The combination of hormones and undeveloped judgement often makes teens do some things they regret later, and the role of supervisory adults is to teach, by example as well as by instruction, appropriate behavior... not to be their friends. Good luck with your decision.
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Samuel Smith |
so john,i as a volunteer have the right to make a morality call?interesting? i have never been called re before? how far am I allowed to extend my jurisdiction?my family,my friends,co workers?i don't think it's my call. and how many youth groups have you worked with? yeah
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Talking in private would've made a bigger deal out that than just jokingly saying "not until you're married".
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Sharon Day |
I don't think Pat is listening anymore.
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John G. Clifford Jr |
Yes, Sam, as a volunteer you have the right to make a "morality call" as you put it. Did you give up your right? If it's not your call, then who's call is it? Re "extending your jurisdiction," I have "jurisdiction" over my family, and I would CERTAINLY say something to my child, or to my nieces, if they acted objectionably. If adults in my presence act in a manner that I find objectionable, depending on the circumstances I'll say something or I'll leave (whichever is more appropriate). If co-workers act inappropriately at work, I'll certainly call them on it. If children act inappropriately in my presence then I'll also say something. Too many people today fail to say something when children act inappropriately... perhaps that is why we see a lot of ill-behaved children. Re how many youth groups I've worked with, this is a red herring. You and I both know that I can point to people who have worked with hundreds of children yet who have acted inappropriately or incorrectly (can you say "Catholic clergy"?), so sheer numbers mean nothing. This is a typical "referral to authority" argument ("I know more because I have more experience") and I'm not buying it. BTW, I've worked with youths, individually and in groups, as a volunteer in different circumstances, but I'm not going to start listing roles in a "mine's longer than your's is" type of pointless argument. The fact is, we each have the right to judge the conduct of others, and we all do this all the time. And, when it comes to children (even teens), it is our responsibility as adults to speak out when we see them acting inappropriately. The failure of many adults to do so is one of the things that is wrong with our society today. I certainly hope that, if my son does something inappropriate while he's on a sports team, or a school trip, or at a friend's house, that he is called on it.
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Samuel Smith |
well um,ok. sam
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Melanie Murray |
I'm interested Pat, what have you decided upon? I think that if had been me I would have added 1-2 of those pics..the nicest one's obviously...perhaps cropped any "questionable" spots down a bit and just gone with it. Girls will be girls and the mother did not seem to mind at all. At that age, girl's love having "fun" pics with there friends. Let us now the update.. :)
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Pat Wimpee |
Hi Melanie, I agree the girls were just having fun and didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing. The problem lay in how it could be percieved I guess. I took the chicken way out and just said I posted the pictures that looked good so this is what you have to chose from. In the future however, I did learn a very valuable lesson and I will be saying sorry the light doesn't hit good right there or something like that and NOT take the picture. Then just change the posing around and move on. BIG lesson learned.
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Melanie Murray |
Lol...good for you. And hey, it could have been worse. I hope that they enjoyed there photos regardless and I'm glad it worked out okay in the end.
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Symona R. Wood |
Melanie, I am obviously a very late reader if this situation, however being a mom of 7 kiddos....4 girls, 3 boys, I MUST respond ! Last night my 3 oldest girls, 12-14-16, previewd the 'Brats' movie which my darling, way too mature for her own good, six year old has been begging to watch. Well, SHE WON'T BE !!!!! No way !! Although several of her 'little' friends mommies have purchased the movie for their little darlings because they think it is so 'cute' ! These are the same mommies who now, at least 3 of the group, have 15 and 16 year old daughters/sons with their own little 'brats'. Our local news paper even printed a sweet article because one of the little darlings, who was 15, family now had a 6 generation family....grandma and mommy had babies at 15, too.....what a legacey ! On mothers day my family was asked to give the sacrement talks and although I felt a bit 'umf' being mothers day, I cam away so pleased at what my children had to say....the most relevant to this was my 14 yr. old daughter who spoke of modest dress and modest behavior, and shared with the congregation that her mother (that would be me) has always set a high standard of apropriate dress and self worth, never putting the kids down for their own choices, but always asking the quesion, when needed be, 'how do YOU feel about what your wearing ?'. Let us go further...the small town I reside in has good youth, troubled youth...the norm, however what too many adults in my community don't see is what is happening behind the scenes...i.e....myspace. I have a myspace, my 3 oldest daughters do, too.....we set up their accounts together, passwords and all...looked for fun, expressive backgrounds, add-ons, etc....but age apropriate, etc. I know their passwords and will log into their accounts and view their activities....not once have I been disapointed nor embarressed.....I am, however floored as to what the 'good' kids have posted....sorry folks, but a small town 6th grader does NOT have 300 'friends'. A 'friends' daughter had a suicide page....as do many others, and the background photo was a girl, lat down on her desk, gun as if fallen from her hand and blood running from her head shot......oh fun, I called my 'friend' and asked for her NOT to tell her daughter I called, but wanted to inform her of what I saw....not only did she tell her daughter who called, but has not spoken to me since. I know I did the right thing and will do it again...a teens life is more important to me than some ignorant mommy. I aplaud you not finishing the shoot ! If mommy wants seductive photos of her children she has many role models locally and in the news and magazines, let her take them her self and also be responsible for the outcome. I will not take a photo of any one under 18 or who is not married, that I would not take of my own children. I take it a step further, my girls do NOT wear small, two piece bathing suits and when their friends come over, they are expected to do the same...we provide cute and popular extra suits for those who do not have one or ask they wear a t-shirt over. Sorry this is such a long winded response, however when I feel so strongly, especially about children, it's what comes out !! BTW...I am a happy and well adjusted survivor of child sexual abuse, abandoment at age 10 and on my own at 15, living with a guy 28 yrs. old.....I speak from experiance and from healing and know from where I speak....If parents are not going to 'step up' and protect and expect reasonable behavoir from them selves or their children, then we, as photographers, owe it to our selves and our future photographers to set a higher standard for them to follow.
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Mark Feldstein |
Symona, since you sound as though you're a self-appointed morals cop, I recommend a much different forum to vent in. As for your comment that you're "a happy, well adjusted survivor of sexual abuse and abandonment at age 10 and on your own at 15, living with a guy etc., etc.," I suspect that you'really not, for a number of reasons including those clues you mentioned here. The ridigity of your thinking and how apparently proud you are of your self-fulfilling prophecies also says a lot for just how in need of adjusted or a tune-up you really are. If I showed this to my wife, a psychiatrist who, every day, works with individuals and groups on a daily basis with abuse survivors, bipolar teenagers, including attempted suicide survivors, and/or their kids, she would likely point out how very insecure and fearful you are from your own words. She would likely tell you that the root of suicide attempts for nearly half the teenage girls who attempt it is overly protective, moral preaching, ranting and raving religious zealot parents. Parents who spend the majority of their free time with their kids doing a lot of things that you seem to do, including the invasions of privacy, gossiping about moral issues with neighbors and parents of other kids, and attending PTA meetings to censor the school librarians. This is hardly equipping your kids with the education they need in the REAL world which exists far beyond the town you're hiding out in. Operating on fear-based premises is unfortunate and that legacy is being perpetuated on your kids. If you keep it up, you're going to emotionally cripple these kids because of your own childhood. That's a shame. From your own words, you're merely making a crude attempt to shelter your kids rather than educate them while at the same time imbuing them with your own insecurities. Rather than helping them to freely develop their OWN moral values, you're coercing them, forcing them actually, to take on your very slanted views. Moreover, a small town these days doesn't afford them the same degree of isolation (or protection) from the world that it used to. It takes a lot more than a small town to raise kids these days than that. Expanding rather than limiting the scope of their educations is a significant key to having them well-adjusted. Spying on your own kids, or someone elses, is not the solution either. Being proud of yourself for spying on your own kids or ratting out someone elses kids to their parents isn't the solution either. Educating them and telling them what you survived, how and why, what you did to get help and guiding them without force or coercion (which makes them neurotic adults) is a more appropriate solution. Having open, frank, accurate conversations about sex and encouraging them to come to you with questions, particularly about their own sexuality, drugs and other issues is paramount these days. Open honest communication with your kids, telling them how the world is rather than trying to hide them from it, is the solution. If you doubt what I'm saying, check your kids out after they've been out of your home and in the world for a few years and see how they're really doing based on your tutelidge. See what they decide to hide from you, what they unilaterally agree to experiment with, how being ill-informed did them a disservice. At that point, I'd get back to the psychotherapist so they can diagnose something along the lines of a major depressive disorder, recurrent severe and your reabandonment issues from your own kids. Meanwhile, I'm sure I speak for the rest of the photographers here when I say "thanks very much for sharing" something so inappropriate to this particular website.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Raise your hand if you wished things were like the Brady Bunch. Check out an episode. The skirts were super short.
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Mark Feldstein |
BTW, how many of you out there in BP land prefer "living" to "surviving". Where I come from, those are two completely different philosophies on life. I spent years as a parent teaching my kids how to live openly without fear and I didn't do it through censorship or forced feeding of ideas, ideals and morals. They turned out pretty good actually, and I'm equally proud of all 3. Latah Mark
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John G. Clifford Jr |
Wanting to protect children is not "living in fear." It's about making judgments about how to live your life, and how not to. I'm also a big believer in not offering advice until it's asked. Britney hasn't asked me to advise her on her dress code, how to get out of a car modestly, or her parenting skills, so I don't feel compelled to comment widely on either. However, if I see someone else's child playing with a gun, I will certainly point that out. I would also point out a 'suicide page' to the parent of a child that I know. I'd rather lose the friend than lose the child. I want my child to grow up to be a happy, productive, self-confident, and self-reliant. In order to accomplish that, I try to be the best person I can be, and as my son notices them, I point out negative aspects of conduct that lead to negative consequences. That's not living in fear, it's learning from others' mistakes. Children need to be protected from the world at large, until they can handle the world at large. Sometimes that means being the bad guy, instead of their friend. That's what adults are for. Don't ever feel defensive for protecting your children, and don't ever let others try to intimidate into not doing what you think is right. That's my two cents... for what they're worth.
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Symona R. Wood |
To Mark and a few others....I posted a response to the person who asked for one...this is 'my' opinion....I am not a 'judge', although I will stand and welcome anyone who wished to judge me, I am an adult !!! As for 'spying'....I NEVER have to spy on my children nor their friends !! My children openly share their pages, firends, struggles and yes, good times ! Their friends know I sit with my daughters and view pages and some have me as a 'friend' and are very swwet kids. As for the brady bunch fan.....I grew up with 'them' and sure the skirts were short, I even wore them as a youth. However we live in very different times, very different world than 30 years ago. My husband and I do not shelter nor dictate to our children..we do however lead them, guide them and walk beside them until at which time they are mature enough and confident enough in them selves to go out at make their way. This, as other online forums are just that...forums for anyone who feels they could contribute to someone who asks for others opinions. That's what I did ! BTW.....I am done here....my posting, that was written with my 12 and 14 yr. old daughters adding their $.02 worth, too, was for the 'asker' and anyone who wanted to read it. I do wish to add, that any time you'd like to email me and do a 'light hearted battle of morals'...I am here....well over there, at my email...LOL Life is too short to get mad at others for their opinions....it's their right, my right, your right....two of my grandfathers fought for that right, 4 of my cousins and my uncle did also, so that you and I and anyone else can post a comment, post pictures. BTW....you all have amazing galleries and I am so pleased to be here with you all !!! My intent was not to cause any outbursts or negativety, just to add my personal opinion and experiances to the posted question !!!! You are all amazing people, why else would you be here !!! Happy Holidays...Ho-Ho-H0 and I'll continue to view and admire your galleries as you share with the rest of us !!!!! BTW John C. Thanks for your comment, too.....I, at times, get a bit too fixed on my soapbox and although well intended, I can yabber on....I am learning and maturing and agree with you whole heartedly ! I have checked off the notification box and would love to view photos from you all and welcome whole-heartedly all comments on photos as I am here to learn and will most likely not respond to any feeds unless it is purely about photos or editting.....
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Times aren't that different. Old folks were bent outta shape over zoot suits, leather jackets, long hair, and short skirts in every decade from the 40's to the 70's.
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Samuel Smith |
click,click,click,..rats..
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Melanie Murray |
Symona, I will keep this short seeing as this is a forum on photography and art. You obviously have alot to say about many things including issues that don't belong in a thread like this. I respect your opinion but let's face it, your response was directly to me, not to Pat who initially asked the question and has already resolved it. If you may notice in my previous response I mentioned cropping the pics. You know..cropping out what is inappropriate..thanks for the lengthy response and your life history though. I wish you good things and hope that your future continues in a postive manner unlike your past.
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Mark Feldstein |
RATS !!! Now we have rats to contend with. Anyone got a big cat? I'll call Western Exterminator and see if we can rent one. Sheesh ! M
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Symona R. Wood |
I get the point and YES YES YES......I did NOT read it as I should all through.....my daughters and I all 'went off' in a very wrong direction....YES....stupid me......I have aplogised to the 'asker' and would ask that anyone out there who is NOT perfect to allow this over-zelous mom to have a break and know no ill was intended.............I am sure your not, a single one of you, free from a foot in the mouth or'hand' as in this case and have done things you wish you had not.............................................................CASE IN POINT HERE....................................it was stupid....I give you ALL aplologies and wish you'd just let go and go take some more awesome photos and next time you speak out of place or do or say something that you immediatly wish you had NOT and wish you could un-say-un-do stupid....you'd remeber this rediculous feed and be glad someone is not ripping into you and telling you what you already know.....THAT YOU MESSED UP........enough already !
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Mark Feldstein |
Well Symona, even I admit to being passionate about a cause once in a while. No harm, no foul. I for one, forgive your transgression. Be well ;>) Mark
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Melanie Murray |
I had just read the thread for the first time in a long time and decided to post what my gut felt as well. I said my share and it ended for me at that. Thanks for the response though. I look forward to better and lighter conversations in the future :)
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Symona R. Wood |
Melanie and Mark....THANK YOU and thanks for truely sharing the spirit of the season with this fellow photo-nut...in more ways than one.....LOL...Happy Hlidays, which ever you celebrate and I look forward to learning even more as a person and mostly as a photographer !!! If we were not a pasionate group of individuals...we certainly would not be here !!! LOVE-PEACE-JOY to you all !!!!
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Samuel Smith |
ah morals, to intrude my or your opinions on another.of course i'm right.see.. how do we evaluate such a premise? go ahead and think this is the norm?or to realize,there is a different way of thinking?say it ain't so.. go ahead and crop out what you deem the offense nature,yet in real life you are not given that opportunity. I think we all know that the penal system could be depicted as foreplay. please withold judgement on our youth,they have no concept of our beliefs or concepts.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Sam said penal
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Samuel Smith |
judicial system?and not offended at all by any summation. though some don't recognize a post,similarities? hmm. still comes down to making a call.your moralities versus...mine are better,yours are better..well the majority says? well,you've heard a lot pat,as you sit in the morning drinking your coffee,make a call. my call is symona is who??
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