 Irene Troy |
Wedding Disaster in the making! Okay – this is for all you hard working wedding photographers. It is also for just about anyone who wants something to howl about. A good friend of mine called me last night to ask if I would be willing to talk with one of his co-workers who was planning to do some wedding photography. After saying that I knew nothing about wedding photography, I agreed to call the guy. The man, I’ll call him Tim, wanted to know whether I might have a flash unit he could borrow. I was a little puzzled, I do have a flash unit, but it is meant to work only with my Minolta cameras. I explained that as far as I know, and I could be wrong, most flash units are designed to match the camera and that one size does not fit all. I asked “Tim” what he was doing and he told me that 2 of his good friends were getting married and had asked him to be the photographer. I asked if he had experience in weddings and he told me that he was not really a photographer, but he had taken some pictures (his words) at some summer event and everyone had liked them. The bride and groom to be (who must be nuts!) saw the images and asked him to bail them out of some issue regarding the initial photographer hired to shoot their wedding. I tried to explain how wedding photography is a very specialized field requiring considerable knowledge and the right equipment – equipment I do not own, nor even fully understand – and that he might want to rethink his offer. He assured me that all would be fine and proceeded to ask me the following: what type light (his words again) did he need to take picture in a candle lit church; if it rained, could his camera get wet outside without being ruined; how should he pose the wedding party; and other similar questions. I kept saying that I do not shoot weddings and do not know the answers to his questions. I finally asked him what type equipment he had and was told that he was going to use a Canon camera – he did not know what model – that had two lenses, he did not know what type. I kept trying to convince him NOT to take this wedding on – saying that this was a good way to lose his friends, the bride and groom. Of-course, he kept telling me that everything would be okay. So, who’s crazier here, “Tim” or the bride and groom? YIKES!! I might know much about wedding photography, but I know more then this guy - I WOULD NOT SHOOT A WEDDING thinking that I could do a good job because I can create some nice images of birds, flowers or wildlife!!!
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John P. Sandstedt |
You said it all. Whenever I'm asked to shoot pictures at a wedding I always recommend "leaving it to a professional wedding photographer." I offer to take pictures "around the pro." And, that usually works out. I've made that recommendation in several BP threads. Merely havong a camera in one's hands doesn't guarantee impressive pictures. And, since there are no "repeats" at a wedding, you're absolutely correct when you say, "It's a great way to destroy a friendship!" Now, all wedding photographers had to start someplace. Like you, Irene, I think that start shouldn't be at a close friend's gala.
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Christopher A. Vedros |
That's a tough call, Irene. I think they're all nuts. Doesn't this situation seem to be happening more and more often? It seems the rising popularity of digital photography with "the masses" is convincing more and more people that if you have a camera, you must be a photographer. Like someone said here recently, "I watched a wedding photographer once, it looked easy." It also seems more and more brides & grooms are willing to risk their "special day" on anybody with a camera. Do you think they're assuming that since everyone has a camera these days, anyone could do a good enough job? Or do you think the couples that go that route have "devalued" the importance of wedding pictures? This is and interesting topic, I'd love to hear some opinions on it. Chris
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Tonya Cozart |
I think that it is a price issue. Wedding photography is expensive, and after doing a few, you can see why, but to the average person, several thousand dollars sounds high for someone to "snap some photos", or so you think. I know that is what I get, people looking for a "deal" cause all the photographers around are too high. I think it is like the saying that everyone should work for the public at some point in their life just for the experience, people who have been waiters/waitresses treat their servers better because they know what the job entails, customer service is hard work, wedding photography is hard work, and no on realizes the real work that goes on prepping for the wedding and then getting it all together afterwards. A bride will spend thousands on a dress that will be worn once, but wants a deal on pictures that will be her final memory....go figure.
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Denyse Clark |
Hi everyone! Yeah, I'm scared for this guy and his friends. I did the "please help me, do my wedding on short notice" thing, but I had worked with my equipment for years and had taken classes (was shooting in M). I did major studying and practice beforehand. I think Tonya is right- it's a price issue mostly. Some people are cheap. Some people don't care that much about photos. (I know WE don't understand that, but it's true, lol) Some people really are going small budget & do not have $2k to spend. I have an informal 2nd wedding lined up for this summer. That's all I'll tackle, and I know it's all I can handle. I think there are room for us newbies, but you have to know your limits and be fair to the clients. A good rule of thumb should be- If you dont know the NAME of your camera, you should not be shooting a wedding. haha. Ridiculous.
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Justin G. |
Chris said it right. Seems lately, especially on this site if you have anything above a 2MP P&S camera everyone will support anyone shooting a wedding with the excuse "you gotta start somewhere". Ha if only people realized that MOST people only get married once so they need thier memories caught on film right the first time. Then they come on here and say "I've seen someone do it and it looks easy". what the heck is that? Shoot I've been in OR with a guy who had a hole in his heart. I watched the doc and yeah it looked easy so can I do your open heart sugeory? Come on people think a little. That's the downside of this site and digital photography. Everyone is too nice to each other and "it's ok you can fix it in Photoshop". Could somebody enlighten me on how to fix blur and underexposure resulting in loss of detail. People you shouldn't be shooting weddings unless you have extreme knowledge in posing, exposure, portrait, and PH photography. Start thinking a little. I wouldn't expect any less than PRO at my wedding.
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Denyse Clark |
Justin, you have to understand that while you "wouldn't expect any less than PRO" at your wedding, that's not true for everyone. Seriously. I know lots of people who would rather have mediocre coverage for $750 than amazing coverage for $2500. They know it's not the same quality but they simply do not HAVE more money. It's like cars. Hey, I'm BROKE and drive a 12 yr old Hyundai. I might want a $30,000 Jeep- it's profoundly better, nobody is arguing that. But tooo bad for me, I have no money and have to accept the reality that I get what I can afford. And boy am I thankful that there IS a cheap alternative so at least I can have SOME kind of car. For SOME weddings, its the same thing. You can't have what you can't afford.
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a n |
wow Irene, this makes me feel a little better (in a higher bracket at least). I know my equipment, just don't trust my in-camera-light-meter 100% of the time. Got plenty of juice for my 550 and hopefully enough gigs by "the day". Some people get lucky and shoot a perfect day when the lighting is right. I remember shooting in program for the first time and the pictures were great, and I thought "cool the cameras are now smart enough to shoot by themselves". So the next time I shot a couple during sunset, and later had to lie to them that the chip failed(pictures sucked). Thats when I started spending half my life at borders.
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x |
As many new people that are coming in, are also drowning. The specialty of wedding photography does seem easy. You see some guy/gal walking around with a camera and lens and shooting stuff all day, and you think to yourself, big deal. Anyone can do that. Plus, it looks so fun. And, geez, that guy/gal charged $3,500 for digital photos. You got to be freakin' kidding me. That guy/gal is making some serious payola. Yeah right. The new folks don't have insurance. So, while it's not a ball buster on the budget, it is if something happens. The way I explain it to clients is this...where I live, theft is huge. So, theives go to the venues, dress like a guest, and when the photog turns away, which we have to do often, they grab the bags and go. So, lets say that happens, and you have another wedding next week? With insurance, they will get you back operational in that time. I am heavily networked. So, in the above scenario, I have photog friends who will loan me equipment until I can recover again. If I am hurt the day before the wedding...badly hurt...I am heavily networked and someone will cover the event. Most new people have trouble in low-light. They don't have the fast lenses required. And, most receptions are at night, in a dark reception room. You are expected to nail the moments. "It was too dark" aint gonna fly. Have you ever seen the difference between the guest shots and a good pro's shots? It's like night and day, literally. There's the stress of just having to shoot everything...there are no re-do's. You can re-do a few things, but mostly, it's a one-time shot. That's it. That's very stressful. Most photographers, just based on that alone, can't or wont deal with the pressure of weddings. There's the families, the parents, the children, the drunks, the no-class jerks, the venue that treats you like a 2nd-class citizen. There's the equipment malfunctions, and the dropping of your $2,700 lens on solid concrete. There's the CF card organization (and don't trivialize this part at all). There are computer crashes, ext HD crashes, software malfunctions. There is the whole color mgmt issue with matching your monitor to your lab. There are entire volumes of books written on this topic. There is archiving of files and images. There is delivery, album creation, meetings, bookings. There are accounting service fees, because when you have a business, you have to keep track of the inflow and outflow of your money. There are quarterly taxes you have to do. You have to have your biz license. You actually need a license for every city you work in. You need permits to shoot almost everywhere. This can be very costly. There are parking fees every where you go. Gas. The upkeep of your vehicle (you can't drive a car that might not make it to the wedding). You have to be alert all day long (sometimes a very long day with no breaks). You have to deal with difficult clients. Very demanding clients. Sometimes, unhappy clients. You have legal fees for contract creation, and sometimes, defense in court - not only from clients (which should be very rare), but all kinds of things. What if a venue sues you because you use an image of their property on your website? Those kinds of things happen. Working from your home gets weird once you have alot of people coming in and out all day long, so you get a place of business. Another cost. I covered a few things, but I could go on and on and on. It is a very very demanding and rewarding business to be in. But, it is not easy, nor is it just something to do for fun, nor are too many making big bucks. Most wedding photographers I know, who charge around my prices, are scraping by OK, but by no means are we driving around in Lexus's and living in beach front houses. Our expenses are very high. Our stress is very high. And our knowledge is valuable. I'm not complaining, I love it and would trade it. But, the newbies are doing 2 things. First, they are reducing expectations in the market. All these people getting married are looking for someone to shoot their wedding for less than $1k. While to someone who is very naive, that seems like a lot, it is not sustainable for a business to charge that price. If that continues, they will be shut down before the 1st year. However, there is this weird thing out there that we all over charge. So, the misunderstanding of digital photography, I think, is the problem. 2nd, not only are the newbies under charging, but they are giving away EVERYTHING under the sun for that price. Since when did giving away the neg's become so common. People, the neg's are where the value is. If you give those away, you cheapen not only your work, but the entire industry. Cheers,
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a n |
great info Jerry, If you are holding on to all the negatives, how do you keep them safe from lets say a fire. I know they have fire proof safes but the heat is still intense enough to maybe destroy your files. I will give them the negatives because I don't want to be responsible for them.
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Justin G. |
Isn't the photog supposed to "traditionally" cost like 10-25% of the total wedding value? And lying to your clients, not a good way to win people over. The second you get caught, you're rep is done. Word of mouth is what photography marketing is all about. Now granted they may "understand" that the "card failed" but do you think they will keep coming to the photog who can't use their cards properly, or their "cheap cards don't work"? people are vicious. If you didn't know how to shoot it, you shouldn't have shot it. Camera's don't operate themselves and anyone who thinks so is either extreme beginner or foolish. it's not the camera that makes a photograph, it's the photographer. you should've just told them that you couldnt' pull it off and you needed more training. or told them that they are "test dummies" and you're "experimenting" on them. lying is not the way to go, it hurts the integrity of all photogs.
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Irene Troy |
I think the money issue is at the root of a whole lot of problems. Too many people – at least where I live, in Northeastern Massachusetts – seem to ignore the reality that, for the most part, you do get what you pay for. This does not mean that just because someone charges high prices they are automatically better than the person whose prices are lower; however, the old adage of “if it seems to good to be true, it probably is” should be emblazoned on every product/service being marketed today! I am primarily a writer. I have had some success in writing, mostly nature and travel writing, and hope to add photographer to my resume. I do not think that I am there yet. I can see progress in my own work and am pleased with some of what I have produced. However, I do not fool myself into believing that my work is good enough, yet, to market against some of the real pros in my field. I’m honest with myself; I know that other people do better quality work. This doesn’t depress me, it inspires me. I am not about to market myself as a female Moose Peterson (if you are not familiar with his work he is a very accomplished wildlife photographer) – even at a lower cost! I do some work for various local nature and conservation groups and I do get some nice comments on my work. From time to time I have had people ask me to photograph events or fundraisers for similar groups. If I feel qualified I will take the work, but I know and accept my current limitations. I’m not going to take on a job that I know I cannot deliver even if the person is trying to save money by hiring someone less well known. No matter what you pay me, it is my name and my reputation that are always out there. So, yes the buyer should be aware of what s/he is purchasing; however, the supplier – the photographer in our case – needs to be honest about their level of ability. And Jerry, I think you make some good points. As a “newbie” in my own field of photography I think it is my responsibility to learn what the norms are in that area and to, at least until I am more established, stay within those norms. By undercutting the more experienced person I am lying to my potential client and to myself. I do charge less for what I do, but I also let the potential client know that I charge less because I am less experienced. Then the client can make up their own mind about what they need. Somehow this does not seem to negatively impact my ability to get jobs. Frankly, I find most people appreciate the honesty and are willing to work with me, a somewhat raw newbie.
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x |
First, I'm talking about charging appropriately given experience and the area in which you work/live. That depends on a ton of factors. What I don't care to see, is people who say, "well, I have a full-time job, and this is just fun for me, so I'll charge $250." That's a horrible tragedy. It's not the end of wedding photography, but it is a shame. Because what those people are doing is subsidizing all their costs with their daytime job. The full-timers can't do that because that is their job. Those people are making it look like digital photography is free, but their computer, CF cards, camera equipment, car, and time, are all subsidized for them, so it 'seems' cheap. But, the truth is that it wasn't. So, just keep these things in mind when you are pricing yourself for this. Also, honesty is key. You have to be honest and upfront about your skills, abilities, and experience. If you have alot of experience shooting nature, show that to your potential clients so that they can see that you have some skill. As far as the neg's go. With film, this wasn't such a big deal. you kept the neg's in your home, or some people stored them at a pro lab somewhere. But, now with digital, for some reason, people are weird about it. But, the thing that makes me laugh is with digital you can have 2 exact duplicates of exactly the same thing with no degradation of quality. So, when you burn a back-up, burn 2, and store one off-site and one on-site. If you work from home, I know lots of people that send a back-up to a family members house for storage. So, here's what I do. I download my cards onto my laptop at home the night after the wedding. Then, I look through them to make sure everything's cool. Next day, I make another back-up on another external drive. Now I have 3 copies, 1 on the cards, 1 on the laptop, 1 on the external drive. Then, I go to the office and put the images on my HD and go to work. Now, I have 4 copies. When I'm done doing WB, Contrast Bump, and whatever, I renumber, and make a 1 DVD of the RAW files. Then, I batch to JPEG. Then, I make 3 copies of the JPEG on a DVD (1 office, 1 home, and 1 to the lab). Then, I move the RAW files from my main HD (which has a RAID 1 configuration), to a 300 GIG internal drive on my PC for easy quick access to the files. Then, I move the JPEG's to 2 external drives. Then, I go back and delete the files from the laptop. So, I wind up with uncorrected RAW files on an ext Drive, corrected RAW files on an internal drive, corrected RAW files on a DVD, 3 full-res JPEG's on 3 DVD's all in separate locations, and 2 full-res JPEG's on 2 HD's. So, I'm pretty much covered. It sounds more complicated than it really is. But, I don't trust HD's, so for every one I have, I have another that backs-up. But, I don't use auto back-up, I don't trust software to do it correctly either, so everything is manually done. But, I want everything on HD's for quick easy access to the files. So, I have 2 for every 1. All the DVD's are in case all hell breaks loose. I really don't need to keep both JPEGs and RAW on DVD, I just like to do that. Jerry
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Denyse Clark |
"Because what those people are doing is subsidizing all their costs with their daytime job" I disagree with that. I suppose SOME people do that. But like Irene said, most of us charge less because we OFFER less. And people who really are on limited budgets need an option, don't they? Jerry- do you believe that someone who cannot afford a pro, does not deserve to have a photographer at all?
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
There's still a fixation about it's digital that's doing something. The expectation that a picture from a negative can just be regardlessly printed to look fine hasn't changed because of digital. It's the same thing. Give the people what they want, don't try to educate them; that's an old saying. This isn't a case of passing on a pro without seeing what they do and choosing a friend after seeing their pictures. This is a part of every service business. High end restaurants don't attract every eater just because of how good a chef they claim to have.
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x |
Denyse, does everyone deserve to drive a car? I tend to think not. And, I do think it's a complete shame that people think that way. NO ONE DESERVES WEDDING PHOTOGRAHY. It is a luxury item, not a right. If you want to get into that issue, all a wedding is is a celebration of two people sharing their love and exchanging vows under god. That costs nothing to do. Does everyone deserve a cake, a dress, to feed 150 guests? If they have those things, they can certainly make room in the budget for a photographer. Denyse, you ARE subsidizing all of your costs with your day job. Whether you want to face that fact or not, that's what you are doing. Charging $250, you are not making ANY money. You think you are because it looks and feels like it, but you are not. How much stuff do you have? think about all of the resources it takes for you to shoot a wedding. Everything you have, touch, use to do it. Add up all those costs, including your house that you use to do the processing of the images in, and allocate those costs over all your weddings (or your one wedding). You will soon realize that it costs you a ton. Now, you will argue that that stuff is already paid for, and that is what I am saying. Your job is subsidizing your photogaphy stuff, so it looks free. But, it is far from free. Gregory, you are correct. I understand that. But, the restaurants that you are talking about, whether high-end or low-end are all in business. There are no restaurants that have a day job that subsidize them. They are all making profit, else they would not be in business. My point is, why is photography, in any specialty, any different at all? I might be done with this, but I am just trying to add some sanity to the low-ballers out there. Just think about it. That's all. If you shot film, your price would be higher, right? Why is that? Because you are paying a lab to do the processing? But, instead of the lab, now you have to do that? Is your time less valuable?
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Irene Troy |
Jerry – you wrote: “Also, honesty is key. You have to be honest and upfront about your skills, abilities, and experience. If you have alot of experience shooting nature, show that to your potential clients so that they can see that you have some skill. Said very well! That is my point: there is nothing wrong with shooting images at a friend’s wedding IF you tell that friend that you have never shot a wedding in the past and that your expertise (or not) is elsewhere. Last spring a friend of mine asked if I would be interested in shooting some images at her wedding. I laughed and said that she must be nuts – I never have done photography at a wedding and certainly was not going to start at her wedding. She and the man she married had planned a very informal outdoor wedding. They paid for everything themselves and knew that if they did not hire a pro photographer they would not get pro results. They decided to give everyone disposal cameras and then collect the images. No portraits, nothing fancy and lots of images that pros would probably toss out but they are happy with what they got. It’s not pro and it’s not what some would want, but it worked for them. But the prime thing is that they were honest with one another and I was honest with them. You have to know what you want as a client and as a pro (or even wanna-be pro) you have an obligation to be honest with any potential client or even your friends. There is no law that says that a bride or groom has to hire a pro for their wedding pictures. You can do like my friends did; you can hire a local amateur who is trying to learn the ins and outs of the business; you can do about a zillion other things; but, first you need to figure out what you want and what you are willing to pay. If you are limited in funds then your choices are equally limited. Being creative is one way of resolving the cost factor. I heard this story – it initially was not about photography, but it fits: A surgeon takes his car into a very fine mechanic who manages to diagnose and fix a serious problem that no one else has managed to fix. When the doctor gets his bill he complains about the cost and says that he could have made the same repair with tools in his home garage and wonders how the mechanic justifies such a high cost. The mechanic said to the doctor: “My wife had surgery several months ago and it cost us a bundle. I have a sharp knife at home; perhaps I should have done the surgery myself and saved us the money”. The point: having a camera – even a very expensive camera does not make one a photographer. Charging high prices does not make you the best. Offering your services at a lower rate – reflecting your own lack of experience or abilities – does not make you a second rate photographer. Working two jobs – one to pay the bills and one because it is your passion does not mean that you are “rinky-dink”; it probably means that you are, like most of us, trying to turn that passion into your full-time career. Being honest with other people is good. Being honest with yourself is essential.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Actually there are restaurants that have other jobs for extra funds. Plenty of places that are only open for part of the day;lunch time, few days a week. And the point is that wedding photos are just like anything else. You make money if you didn't spend over $250 to do a $250 wedding. You can't figure in the cost of a house unless you had to buy the house in order to do a wedding, which you don't. That's not a cost. If it were, $50,000 wedding wouldn't be a profit due to all the amount of money you've spent over your life time, house clothes, food, your first apartment, college, books in college. It's really meaningless to keep worrying about it because if somebody is willing to let a friend do their wedding, that is a client you would've never had in the first place. Just like any other business. If there's somebody who gets chosen to do any service for a few dollars, they have been chosen by somebody that any person who has a business for that service is not going to be able to convince with any list of experience, extra frills, or any custom made things is going to get. The point really just comes down to some people aren't looking for the typical business stuff. And you shouldn't worry about it, concentrate on the ones who are.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
The car example above made me think of something. Somebody's going to make a point about the cost of actually fixing it, and the rest is knowing how to fix it. One thing dealers and garages have done is really drop their prices on oil changes. Now the price is close, if not the same , to what it is to do it yourself. Before you paid for the oil and filter, plus the labor. Now, it's around $35. Due in no doubt that people decided that it wasn't worth it to pay more for somebody else to do it(even with not getting hands dirty, storing and disposing of the old oil, time). So dealers and garages came down on price. The oil change isn't a major profit, but it paid off in getting people to use the dealer or garage for another service. Breeds familiarity. So the person who before was willing to do their own oil change, is comparable to the couple who is looking for the friend to do a wedding. They really weren't going to be a client in the first place because they aren't looking for a major engine tune, or a major wedding photo package.
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x |
It's faulty thinking to ignore economic costs, but that's one reason that so many small businesses fail. There are other reasons, to be sure. But, often it is attributed to not understanding the business...the true costs of doing business vs. the income. Many small businesses are blown away by all the "hidden" costs once they go for it. They didn't realize how many of those things were being subsidized elsewhere. By the time they 'get it', it's too late.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Ignore economic cost? Where was that said? It's not valid to say that your $250,000 house that you already live in for the past 10 years, while working at your occupation of choice, goes into cost column when you start doing weddings for $250.
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I'm not arguing that there is not a need at all income levels. I'm just saying that even the dealership has to understand the cost of doing oil changes in order to offer a price where they don't loose money. And, while they can loose money on the oil change, if the average oil change increases sales by X%, then it's OK. But, it's not likely they would do it below cost, just to be nice and get the experience. The will ensure the experience is there and charge appropriately.
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I'm not arguing that there is not a need at all income levels. I'm just saying that even the dealership has to understand the cost of doing oil changes in order to offer a price where they don't loose money. And, while they can loose money on the oil change, if the average oil change increases sales by X%, then it's OK. But, it's not likely they would do it below cost, just to be nice and get the experience. They will ensure the experience is there and charge appropriately.
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I'm not arguing that there is not a need at all income levels. I'm just saying that even the dealership has to understand the cost of doing oil changes in order to offer a price where they don't loose money. And, while they can loose money on the oil change, if the average oil change increases sales by X%, then it's OK. But, it's not likely they would do it below cost, just to be nice and get the experience. They will ensure the experience is there and charge appropriately.
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I'm not arguing that there is not a need at all income levels. I'm just saying that even the dealership has to understand the cost of doing oil changes in order to offer a price where they don't loose money. And, while they can loose money on the oil change, if the average oil change increases sales by X%, then it's OK. But, it's not likely they would do it below cost, just to be nice and get the experience. They will ensure the experience is there and charge appropriately.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
The oil change may or may not be at a loss, depends on what you want to do with factoring in labor. The comparison lies in if somebody charges $250 for the wedding, they don't spend that much, they aren't doing it below cost. Their time, what would they be doing if not the wedding? They aren't going to miss work to do a $250 wedding, so that isn't a cost. The real wedding photo, their prices are high for all the other things you listed. They have a entirely different client pool. The garage/dealership can't get by on cheap fixes, unless they have a client pool that is willing to have a car "fixed" so that it's running at 75% or lower. If there are enough people who are satisfied with a car that dosen't run quite right, then the cheap mechanic is in business with only oil changes. But if people want the car fixed just like new, running smooth, no stalling, then the more expensive place is where you should go. All businesses are like that. Service especially. The more service, the higher the price. The more in demand, the higher the price.
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Denyse Clark |
Millions of people have side businesses, so sure, all of us use our day-job to 'subsidize'. So what. Why is that a crime? Gregory & Irene, nice points, many I was trying to convey. I bought my equipment before I even started a business, just because it's a hobby. If I can earn enough in my side biz to get more, great. And if someday I can quit my day job, even better. But if not, I'm having fun, my hobby is paying for itself, and I am offering a nice service to those with small budgets. It's a win-win if you ask me.
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David A. Bliss |
Every one so far has had valid points, but the argument seems very polarized. Jerry, everything you said about running a business is absolutely true. And yes, it is the little costs that end up getting you in the long run, the ones you haven't planned for. But I don't think your analogy is quite right. Generally, somebody opens a business AFTER they have gained experience in that field. A chef will open his own restaurant, for example. I am a manager. I didn't start my career as a manager. I worked my way up in different jobs, gaining experience, until my skill set allowed me to command a salary that compensated me for that skill set. Absolutely people work for less or no money. That is what an intern is. They work for a company for experience, so that when they graduate they have the experience to get a job. If I couldn't afford a pro photog for my wedding, I absolutely would let an amateur shoot it. I don't agree with the way you laid out your analogy about the car. Just because someone can't afford thousands for a photographer, they shouldn't have ANY wedding pictures taken? Just because I can't afford a Lexus, doesn't mean I can't get a cheaper car that will do the job. And even if I can't afford a cheap car, I can take the bus. There are always cheaper alternatives. Yes, the shoes someone has to buy at payless are not as comfortable as Doc's, but they still keep your feet off of the pavement. The point is, though, that if someone pays $250 for wedding pictures, they need to realize they will probably have to make do with Geo Metro quality photos instead of Mercedes quality photos. But is it fair to say that there should be no alternative? Either you shell out thousands for a pro, or you don't get anything?
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This is great dialog folks. I'm glad no one is getting angry becaue this discussion is really good. David, exactly. But, you don't just go open a restaurant and call youself a chef, and sell meals for $1 because you're not really qualified to sell them at full price. What you do is go learn how to cook, and as you do that, you also begin to learn all the situations about being a chef (planning the meals, ordering the inventory, employees, and whatever else they deal with). In wedding photography, you can assist. As you learn the ropes, you learn skills, you start putting a portfolio together, you learn the business side of things. After a while, maybe a year, maybe three, you feel confident enough to shoot a wedding by yourself. And, you will charge a rate that is appropriate, but because you have gained the experience, you can start at maybe $1,500 or something (in my area, that's pretty low - I realize in other areas, that's probably a mid-point). The point is that people are jumping out with no experience, or maybe just a little experience shooting flowers or pets. And, that is the main difference here. If there was more of a path, just like for many other trades, then it would be harder for people to just jump in like they are doing. So, for those people that weren't going to have a photographer, and as a friend, you just went along and took some pictures, that's fine. But, when you start charging people, the dynamic changes and you have to think about all the things that go into that effort, not just the individual effort all by itself. Jerry
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Justin G. |
This probably has nothign to do with the arguements presented but can't you redo an oil change if you put the wrong oil in. Just drain and repeat. Can't you remake a meal if you burn it? Just grab more food and recook. I dunno just my thinking. You can't reshoot a wedding and have the same emotional impact.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Not a good analogy. Switching from literal, concrete actions to emotional, subjective emotionalities. You actually can reshoot a wedding, you just have everybody go back to their places and restart the ceremony. The loss in emotional impact would be like the loss in enjoyment of goin out to eat when you'd have to wait twice as long and smell burnt food in a smoky place. There is a path, as you said assisting, but not a path anyone should have to take. The mercedes analogy can start into the area of what is marketing hype and what is the real meat of the deal. Because, a mercedes to Europeans is just another car. They use them for taxis, delivery trucks. But import them over here, they become luxury autos. You can offer the same but lower to draw more people. You can offer more or unique, and charge more. You can offer the same, be more available. That's the free market. Now the advice side to somebody trying to make their way stays with learn more before you go out there. But the beginning topic of look what these people are about to do with their wedding pictures isn't a case of should or shouldn't.
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David A. Bliss |
There are 3 distinct discussions in this thread. First, on the original point, that is a great example of "I have taken some pictures, and people who know me and wouldn't say they were bad unless they were of the inside of the lens cap think they are good, so I can shoot a wedding..." Bad idea. This has nothing to do with amateur vs pro, this is someone who has no idea what he is doing, and only by dumb luck will there be any good pictures. Second, is amateur vs pro. I agree completely with Jerry on this point. It is about working your way to a point were you are a "pro," a photographer with the experience and knowledge to do the job correctly. I am a good, not great, photographer, but with a wealth of knowledge. It surprises me sometimes how much I actually know about photography (if I could only covert that knowledge into being a great photographer ;-). Even with all of my knowledge, I wouldn't want to touch a wedding. Not my area of expertise, scares me to death. Would I be the extra camera backing up a pro? Sure. Great experience, and if I screw it up, it's not the end of the world. With that said, if someone I knew asked me to shoot a small wedding, like 5 people in a park, and if I didn't do it they wouldn't have any pictures, I would help them out. Not for money, but as a favor to a friend in need of help. Third is cost. Yes, there are going to be some people who have taken the step, shot a wedding or two, and have started charging money for it. To me it is like Morton's worrying about McDonalds. Same industry, very different clients. If someone is having a large wedding, with hundreds of guests, they need to fork out the extra dough and get a pro. If they skimp at that point, then they deserve to have mediocre shots. Some people can only afford a very small wedding, in their backyard (yes, I have been to both). They aren't spending $1000 on the ceremony, they sure aren't going to spend a couple of thousand on a photographer. This is where the less experienced photographer comes in. Now, having read through what I just wrote, I realize that I might have come off like I am saying that if someone doesn't spend thousands on a wedding photographer, they will end up with mediocre shots. Of course an "amateur," or less experienced photographer might take some great pictures. But, as Jerry pointed out, there is so much more you get with the higher end pro. Just like the Morton's - McDonalds comparison. Both places will give you a meal that will fill you up, and tastes good (ok, I might be stretching that with saying McDonalds tastes good, but I like it ;-)...), but at Morton's you are going to get a lot more service, and a lot more extras. It is late, and I have a terrible headache, so I'm sorry if this wasn't the most eloquent writing, but I am off to bed with a bottle of advil!!
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Kerry L. Walker |
I guess I can agree with both sides on this. It is always better to hire a pro but, if you can't, I say it is fine to get "Uncle Fred" to shoot your wedding. You just need to understand that "Uncle Fred" is not a pro and you won't get pro results. The ones that really get my goat though are the brides who are spending thousands of dollars on the food, which will turn to a brown mess the next day, but only want to pay a photographer $500.00 to shoot 300 pictures, provide proofs AND turn over the negatives. I had a bride request this of me a few months ago. I don't know who will be shooting her wedding but it won't be me!
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I've shot small weddings where I was 2/3 of their budget, talk about pressure and an immense compliment. I agree with both David and Kerry. Kerry, I used to get that all the time, but now we spend alot of time pre-qualifying couples. So, by the time I meet with them, they pretty much have their CC or checkbook ready. It works out better that way, I book about 80% of the couples I meet with. I can't stand it when a couple pulls up in an SUV, they are having a wedding at a really posh venue, she talks about her dress, and I know this is an expensive gig, and then they proceed to tell me that there's not much left for the photos. I have no mercy on those people. Full price. No negotiation. I had one bride trying to sell me on the venue (as a way to try to get me to come down on price). Well, I already shot there, and I don't need portfolio material. And, it is a top-of-the-line place. So, sorry, honey. Full price or no-dice. Jerry
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Denyse Clark |
I agree with you guys there for sure. If a B&G are going all out on everything except the photos, it's not a good situation. I had a request to do one this summer at a posh country club over an hour from my town, and they were only leaving 30 min for formal pics, but wanted 3 hrs coverage & wanted it dirt cheap. I passed. I'm not prepared for that kind of nightmare. She acted very annoyed that I asked her those questions to begin with. And I think that's where us newbies need to take some responsibility- not accepting jobs that are over our heads, or when we can forsee our work being under their expectations.
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Kerry L. Walker |
Jerry, I never even met with her. All this was done by e-mail.
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Bret Tate |
This has been a very interesting thread to follow. I wasn't going to comment but I guess I do have my perspective to add. I have done weddings for many years, portrait photography is my source of income, and (disclaimer) I don't mean to insult or offend anyone with my comments. There will always be people that don't respect the abilities required for certain professions and there will always be people that want to find a way to "do it themselves" for "less" than they would pay someone. Today's cameras are very sophisticated, even the entry level equipment, and this allows even the most novice person to get well exposed and in focus photos in most conditions. Therefore, when they look at the photos that they have taken displayed on their home computer, they think "How hard is this? I'm not going to pay someone $$$ to do something this easy." However, when the lighting gets tricky and you don't have the proper equipment and expertise you don't get acceptable results. Most wedding couples and even novice photographers don't understand this. It is the pro's job to get the shot no matter what the conditions. That is why they have spent so much money on education and equipment. Also, the pro can work quickly (a neccessity when working with people) and choose poses that make the everyone look their best. When you accept a portrait job you are telling the client that you are able to do this no matter how much you are charging. A person that takes all day Saturday and Sunday to install carpet in their house ( when it would have taken the pro installer a matter of a few hours) to save $50.00 will be satisfied if the job is less than professional. But, if they pay anyone else to do the job, no matter what their level of expertise is, they will expect a "pro" looking job. The same holds true for wedding photography. No matter what you say up front about your experience level and no matter how little you charge, the client will expect professional results. There have been many analogies used in this thread and I will try to expand on the resturant analogy. When the person cooks a burger at home and burns it, no big deal. But when they pay someone for a burger they expect it to be done right and taste good no matter if it is the $1.00 burger at McDonalds or the $8.00 burger at a more exclusive place. They don't say "Oh well, what can you expect for a dollar?" Many of the questions that I see asked on this site by people that have been asked to shoot someone's wedding or are trying to get into wedding photography show me that even they do not understand what I have stated above. That doesn't even get into contracts, insurance, assistants, etc. Wedding photography is very mentally and physically demanding. It requires a great deal of skill with people and photographic equipment. That type of pressure comes with a price. I will end with a just a couple of questions. For those of you that have day jobs and do wedding photography on the side - How would you react if your boss came to you and said "I don't have much money but I need this job done so I am only willing to pay you $2.00/hour."? And a quote from a local automotive speed shop - "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" Again, I hope that no one feels offended. I just wanted to add my perspective.
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Irene Troy |
After reading all the responses to my original post, I think that I am really glad that I do not shoot weddings!! As a writer, most of the photography I have sold has been an accompaniment to my writing – thus I am not actually “selling” myself as a photographer. Frankly, I do not think I am quite ready for the designation of pro. The little work that I have done just as a photographer has all been of nature and/or wildlife. I have no perspective to comment on whether or not it is easier to shoot nature/wildlife versus weddings – PLEASE let’s not go there! – But at least my subjects rarely talk back to me and even more rarely argue about their poses! I may have to get up before dawn, sit on the damp/snow covered ground, chase through thickets of briars and spend all day tramping through deep snow and ice to capture some elusive creature; however, for me at least, this is part of the thrill and at the end of the day I do not have to deal with jittery, temperamental and demanding brides, grooms and families. Maybe that alone justifies the prices that a pro wedding photographer charges for their work!
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Denyse Clark |
"But when they pay someone for a burger they expect it to be done right and taste good no matter if it is the $1.00 burger at McDonalds or the $8.00 burger at a more exclusive place. They don't say "Oh well, what can you expect for a dollar?" I don't think that's really true. I WOULD expect less of a burger at mcdonalds. You DO get what you pay for. And I don't eat that junk. I go to outback and pay $7 for a burger when I want one :) But I know the difference, and I know which version I want, and what it will cost me in both choices and why. Sure I dont expect to get SICK from mcd's, but it wont look as pretty or taste as good, and I expect that. Can you explain the question about the boss/$2.00 hr? If I already work for him, I don't see how the analogy applies.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
"and only by dumb luck will there be any good pictures." Maybe that's what turns some people away from hiring a wedding photog.
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Denyse, good for you. Rarely do people new to weddings turn one down until AFTER they have a few experiences and they start to learn that you don't take everyone who will hand you money. It's on both sides. I interview them as much as they interview me. No other vendor will spend as much time with the B&G as the photographer. Before, during (from beginning to end), and after, we will be interacting with eachother. So, kudos for you for having your radar up early. the most important thing is to make sure you and your client jive. You should feel comfortable with each other. If there is tension, or any twist of oddity, just decline if they call to hire you. Don't tell them you are booked, just say that you didn't feel you were a fit for them...and leave it at that. Don't explain or say anything else. The thing about the hamburger...you might have to do a few more weddings. But, clients do expect a $6 burger for $1. It's actually worse at the lower-end of the spectrum. My biggest clients seem to not really worry about 'what they get' as much as the lower dollar clients. I'm not judging, it just seems that that's the case. It's a really good analogy because anyone who works in service understands this concept. If you sell a portrait session for free (maybe due to a promotion or maybe as a donation to something) often those clients will be the absolute worst to deal with. They will complain that your reprint prices are highway robbery, they will complain that a 1 hour portrait session (for free) is not enough time, they will wwant to fly everyone they know in from all over the country and then complain when you remind them that the deal is for a family of 4 and you have to charge for the 32 people they want you to photograph - not only in a group, but also each individually, and also grouped in their families. It might take a few situations to learn how this works. I have good friends that refuse to do donations like that, they just give cash...because the recipient often turn out to be the worst client of the year. The more available you make yourself, the more free you are, the more people think they deserve, for some weird reason. I'm probably way off topic. I believe this entire thread belongs in the BP Hall of Fame. It stayed on course, no one got offended or out of line, no mud was slung, and it ended well with all parties sort of coming to some small level of consensus. Excellent. I hope to see more of that here. Jerry
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Craig Paulsen |
Sometimes if I really like the people (And I mean we really click then I give them a 25% discount) which I normally do for Mon-Thur weddings. Had one bride tell me recently that she( a catalog model) and he (who she says is very attractive too)would be great advertisement for future weddings. This is true, so I told her that I would take care of my own travel cost. The only reason I agreed was not because of the their looks, but becuase I love Catalina and will stay some extra days and relax.
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Bob Cammarata |
People I know have seen my work and liked what they saw and have asked me to shoot their weddings and I've always replied,..."No thanks!" I tell them that it is a specialized field and that they would be better off hiring someone with the equipment, knowledge and experience to treat their once in a lifetime event with the professionalism it deserves. (Besides,...I would probably waste too much time trying to capture that fly buzzing around the cake.)
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Brendan Knell |
I have never been asked to do a wedding. But I have been at family's wedding and have tooken a few pictures and a few of them turned out. If someone ever does ask me to do their wedding(at least before I've been aperenticed to someone and learned the ropes) then I'll tell them absolutley not, and if it's family and I'm going to be at the wedding anyway, I'll say that I'll have my camera, but I'm not going to be your photographer. "(Besides,...I would probably waste too much time trying to capture that fly buzzing around the cake.)" That's me! I know I'd be taking pics of the arcitecture of the church or the nearby lake!
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Denyse Clark |
I agree Jerry, it's been a good dialogue without any tantrums :) Have a great weekend everyone!
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
yet nobody seems to think they may actually like the pictures they get.
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Bret Tate |
Denyse: The $2.00/hour analogy was meant to point out how people view their own professions vs. others. My profession is portrait photography and I have my price structure. When someone comes to me and says I need you to do my wedding for a quarter of what you charge, after all it's all I can afford after all of the other expenses, they are showing me how much they value my skill. If you were to ask them to do their job for significantly less pay because you just can't afford what they are normally paid, they would probably be offended. In the burger anaolgy, I did not say that the $1.00 burger just didn't taste as good as the more expensive burger. I said that it was burned (destroyed). When someone pays for a burger they expect it to be edible no matter what the price is. When someone does wedding photos on the cheap and uses the "I'm new to this" disclaimer in the hopes that when none of the ceremony shots turn out and they forgot to get any shots of the bride and her mother, the client will be understanding because they didn't pay much are in for a rude awakening. The client expects good shots no matter what they paid. Another example would be this: I need a plumber to fix a pipe that is leaking. I call some of the plumbers in the yellow pages and find that I just can't afford, or don't want to pay, their price for such an "easy" job so I call this friend of my brother who will fix the leak for 25% of the going rate. He tells me that he is new to this plumbing thing but will do his best. When he finishes the job, the leak is fixed but my basement is flooded. I don't know of anyone that would react to this with "Oh well, he told me he was new to this and I didn't pay that much." Everyone I know would be demanding that something be done about this situation and they would be angry. I do believe that everyone must start somewhere but photographers must go into weddings with their eyes open and understand the possible outcome. I hope that this makes sense. It is always more difficult to explain in writing rather than spoken dialogue.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Need to keep it realistic. Nobody's talking about somebody who's never picked up a camera.
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David A. Bliss |
Actually, yes, the original post was about someone who had only picked up a camera once. "he told me that he was not really a photographer, but he had taken some pictures (his words) at some summer event and everyone had liked them." But, to take the plumber analogy one step further. Say I have a problem with the gas line going to my hot water heater. I can't afford someone who specializes in gas lines, so I hire the "friend of my brother who will fix the leak," though he only has worked with water pipes, not gas pipes. He might even be pretty good at fixing waer pipes, but has never tried gas pipes. When he gets the job done, it turns out he didn't know which thread putty to use, and the gas leaks, and blows my house up. Of course, maybe he does end up doing a good job, even though it was his first time. But it is always dangerous to have someone do an important job that is out of their skill set, even if some of the skills cross over (working with pipes, working with a camera).
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
First, that dosen't say or mean they've only used a camera once. Second, using a camera isn't any kind of a comparison to specifics of highly flammable gases. That's nothing but ego to think a wedding is such an exclusive subject that knowledge or skills don't apply and carry over. Is there something special about low light at a wedding that isn't handled the same way as low light somewhere else? Of course not. A better comparison would be if you can build a chair, you can build a table. Now it may not be a nice looking chair, or somebody who's been doing a while may have more stuff or know-how to make inlays and carve designs in it, but if somebody sees you can build a chair that you can at least sit on, you can apply the same to build a table you can at least sit at.
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Bob Cammarata |
"That's nothing but ego to think a wedding is such an exclusive subject that knowledge or skills don't apply and carry over." This can possibly be true if a wedding specialist makes that claim but many "non-people" shooters are often asked to photograph weddings and they agree but they are simply not prepared. I can say this from experience because as a catering manager, I'm no stranger to weddings. The concept of "total accountability" should go through the mind of all would-be wedding photographers before they accept that first gig.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
"I asked “Tim” what he was doing and he told me that 2 of his good friends were getting married and had asked him to be the photographer." Contracted photographer?
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David A. Bliss |
"First, that dosen't say or mean they've only used a camera once" Using your carpenter analogy, I have used a hamer and saw a number of times, but I can't make furniture. Pushing the shutter does not make you a photographer, it makes you someone who takes pictures. "...but if somebody sees you can build a chair that you can at least sit on, you can apply the same to build a table you can at least sit at." If all someone is looking for are pictures, can we call them "snapshots," of their wedding, without any skill or knowledge of proper posing, how to catch good candids, or any number of other important skills, then anyone with a camera will do. I don't think most people want pictures of their wedding that equate to "a chair that you can at least sit on." They want a chair that goes in the dinning room for formal company. I don't think it is ego for a good wedding photographer to think that their skill set is better. I don't shoot for National Geographic. It's because I still haven't gotten good enough to shoot the quality of pictures that are required for publication in that magazine. I don't shoot portraits, because I am not familiar with good posing, best use of light in a studio, etc... That does not mean I am not a good photographer, or that I cannot learn these skills, only that I don't know them now, and would probably not take the best portraits.
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David A. Bliss |
"Contracted photographer?" A verbal agreement is still a contract. Will you take pictures at my wedding? Yes I will. Contract.
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David A. Bliss |
Gregory, you have a very versatile and wide ranging skill set. From looking at your website, I would say you have enough knowledge to be able to take very good wedding photos. You can't honestly think, though, that just anybody who has taken pictures can come away with a good set of quality photos?
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Michelle Ross |
I just started my photo business last year . . . I have taken pictures seriously for about 3 years. . . mostly still life, landscapes, etc. I started having people see those and start asking me to do portrait work . .. at first I back away . . . then I had a friend ask me to do her daughter's wedding ...at the time I was only using film and said No Thank You! I did tell her though I would do engagement pictures if they wanted any . . . that was Dec. 2004. In January 2005, they called and asked me to do their wedding .. . at first I was like I don't think so . .. they were almost to the point of begging me. . . they loved their engagement pics. . . I explained to them about the light and everythign I could think of that could possibly go wrong . .. they said they didn't want alot of formal stuff, but wanted a story of their day .. . I do think money was a part of this but anyway . . . in the end I agreed to do it . . . it all worked out, they loved their images. . . I'm not sure I made much money but it helped me get my feet wet and also they were thrilled. . . it was not your typical bridal photography package . . . however. . it was very stressful for me. .. the wedding was wonderful and I loved the atmosphere and being a part . .. but the stress and worry if I had captured the right stuff was awful . . . soooooo I said never again . .. well now here I am going into a new year and have had lots of success in the portrait part of things and people are seeing these images and calling me to do weddings. ..I'm very flattered but very reluctant too . .. I've so far turned them all away telling them that there are just so many risks involved. .. but the worse part is I want to say yes so badly ... I loved the whole atmosphere. .. my biggest problem is I know I don't have ALL the equipment I should have for weddings, but don't know what I SHOULD GET and can't seem to get straightforward answers. . . I'm willing to purchase those low light lenses, etc. . . but I just want to make sure to get the right one. .. I even went as far as asking a photographer near me if he would mentor me and he turned me down because of the potential competition I might be for him . . . I have found very very few photographers around here that are willing to cut loose and say he I'm here to help . . . soooooo how does someone break into the business when facing obstacles like that . .. many usually start by offering to do a wedding for "free" or perhaps a very low fee. . .I personally couldn't do that but I do think you just have to be honest and hope for the best. . . should I never do a wedding if no one will be willing to offer me advice and help? How do you get "experience" to compete with the PROs if you never take the plunge.?
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Craig Paulsen |
This is a horror story; that worked out great. Back before I was doing weddings and pro stuff I went to a neighbor's daughters wedding, you know one of those events where you gotta go because the mom came to your wedding, yet you don't really know the bride or the groom. After the ceremony was over, we left to have lunch since the reception was hours away. And you guessed it I was the brunt of all the jokes. After lunch we headed home, where I was able to unload all my shots as I was completely out of memory (having not planned for this and leaving my laptop at home). On our way to the reception my wife insisted that this time I actually sit with her, and that I was only allowed to take a couple of key shots for our friend (the Mom). Well you guessed it; when we got there the fever overtook me AGAIN! After it was all said and done I had taken around two thousand shot's at an event where I was just a guest, and I hadn't even gone with the wedding party for their photo shoot. A week later I had all the pictures together, and my wife and I sat down with our friend (the mother of the Bride). Well she loved every single shot, crying multiple times, and making my wife feel much better about my previous behavior. We ended the evening with her telling us that she defiantly wanted a few of the artistic shot's but that she would decide which shot's after she saw the contracted photographers shot's. A few days later she called me crying saying that I had been an angle sent from God to save her daughters wedding. Well of course the bride broke down in tears of severe sadness at the site of their wedding proofs I'm told that the rugged Italian groom even cried at the site of their flawed wedding photo's, while the father of the bride had to leave as to avoid attacking the photographer. Well Christmas was less than two weeks away. And her mother Blessed her with a Beautiful album adorned with hand done captions in Calligraphy, and the personal touch that only a mother could give. My wife and I now know that the passionate fever I felt was from God. Who had decided to use this tragic event to show this couple and hundreds of their friends and family how much he loved them and that he was watching over them.
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Irene Troy |
I don’t think that price, alone, is a measure of either professionalism or quality; however, I do believe that experience and knowledge should and do count for a great deal. If someone has a choice to hire either a photographer with 20 years of experience shooting weddings and whose portfolio is filled with quality images – images that you, the customer, would like for yourself; or a photographer who may just be starting out in the business and whose portfolio is limited and perhaps less reflective of the type images you would like, then the choice should be obvious. If it is an issue of money, which it probably is for many people, then you choose what you can afford and recognize that you may get less then someone who can afford the distinguished pro. As far as the idea that just having skill as a photographer of any type can qualify you to shoot good wedding pics – I understand the principal of the idea, but I have to disagree. Most of my photography has been focused on nature, travel and wildlife because that is what I also write about and I hope to bundle my photography with my writing. I understand something about this type photography, but I feel pretty ignorant of the ins and outs of wedding photography and would not really know where to start doing anything other than snapshots. For years I liked to take pictures, but it was not until about 3 years ago that I got serious and started trying to learn how to make great images. I take classes and I work really hard to incorporate everything I learn and read into my photography, but I still have much to learn. When I hear someone say that anyone can take good pictures or that with Photoshop you can fix any mistake, I have to shake my head. I suppose that anyone can luck onto a nice image, with enough time; however to consistently and reliably produce quality images that you are proud of and others enjoy, takes knowledge and experience. If you are not striving to be the best you can be, then what are you striving to achieve?
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Michelle Ross |
Price can be a major factor regardless of the type of photography . . . I had a call recently from a lady who lives in a town with a wonderful and very reputable as well as sought out photographer. . . somehow she had heard about me and my BP Gallery and called to inquire about having her granddaughter's pictures taken for her 3 month pictures. . . she told me right off the bat she had used this other photographer for 30 years with all her own kids and the other grandkids . . . so I was very on alert right away . . . but in the course of the conversation she told me that this other photographer had gotten insanely expensive over the past several years and that she was tired of spending $1000 per sitting and from her description got very few photos . .. I'm like WHOA. . . I explained right off the bat that I was just getting started . . . didnt' have all the bells and whistles as this other photographer because I wanted her to know I was just starting .. .she assured me all would be fine because she knew I had done other customers of this same photographer and they were happy, yadda yadda. .. so the session has come and gone . . .the pictures turned out beautiful and when she placed her order it was around $350 . . . she told me again if she had used the other photographer it would have been over $1000. Soooooo . .. do I feel flattered or do I feel that she chose me for my cheaper price and was willing to take a chance on my lesser experience. .. Granted this was a session that could have been "redone" if absolutely necessary but not very easily because the baby lived 7 hours away. .. So I think that when we hear those stories about brides choosing this friend to do pictures because he has this new digital camera or has taken some "nice" shots before it is a first reaction to think . .. oh my what if this happens and such . . . but something to think about too is maybe this "friend" is an aspiring photographer like me who just needs some experience and this bride/groom are willing to take a chance on him or her. . . even people who have done lots of weddings have a blunder or two here and there. . . After my first wedding experience(which by the way I read and read and ready everything I could my hands on prior to that day) I was just very overwhelmed and didn't think I would want to do another one . . .but the "fever" is starting to linger into my life and I will admit I'm scared to do another one because of all the horror stories I do hear. . . but at the same time how will I ever know if I don't ever try . . . as far as pricing myself . . . that is such a gray area because people often associate cheap with low quality which is not always true(as is the case with my portrait session I describe above) . . . so I think for those Bride and Grooms that are looking for a photographer to fit their budget that looking at someone who they know is limited in experience, yet really WANTING and DESIRING to do photography as a living adn someone who is willing to research anything and everything to make their day the best it can be is alot different then the Bride and Groom considering and allowing someone who just got his digital camera(regardless of how simple or fancy and great it is)and has no interest or desire to make photography their way of living. . . and as Irene mentions in her last statement . . the only thing I want to say in my situation is that I'm not striving to be the best I'm striving to be better than the best I can be. . . I want to be over the top and have people say WOW look at that . . . I dont' want to settle for just saying I'm there and people are liking what I do so I can relax.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
If say you can't make furniture, nobody's going to ask you to. If you made a chair that somebody sees, because of that they ask can you make me a table, think you can go ahead a say yes and be able to do it. It's not going to be a stretch. The chair was good enough for them. The hand made furniture company has to live with that, this person isn't coming to you. You're just playing word games if you're equating the friend who got asked to somebody who's claiming to be a wedding photographer as if they hand out business cards. You might as well equate picking up a friend at the airport with contracting a limo company. If it makes you feel better to call them snapshots, go ahead. Do see it as an issue because it's somebody else's pictures. Anybody who thinks this bride/groom is destined to be unhappy with the pictures they end up with is speaking with a big ego. As well as thinking I suggested just push the button to get quality pictures. This friend still got asked after he showed some of his pictures. Not after telling the bride/groom he knew where the shutter release was. If he does the same at the wedding, they'll be happy with them. None of you want to accept that. No disaster, not dumb luck.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
"Do see it as an issue" Don't see it as an issue
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BetterPhoto Member |
A guy I work with decided to go the cheap route on his family portrait and went to a local department store to have his family portrait done. I quoted him $25 for a sitting fee and $150 for two 8X10s, two 5X7s and twenty wallets. He opted for $7.00 sitting fee, and one 8X10, one 5X7, and 50 wallets for $9.95. What did he pay? He paid a $7.00 sitting fee, A 150.00 security fee (he wanted his dog in the picture), and $9.95 for one 8X10, one 5X7, and 50 postage stamp sized keepsakes. And I thought I was cheap!!!!!! I guess that cheap means different things to different people. The same person asked me how much I would charge to shoot his wedding. I told him $750.00 because I new how much he made. He decided to go with the disposable point and shoot wedding sets. He now has no wedding pictures to show because everyone who got one of the cameras took off with it.
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Craig Paulsen |
"IT IS what IT IS"
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anonymous |
Ok, I've read about 80% of this thread (i'm at work so can't sit here all day!). My 2 cents Brides and Grooms will ALWAYS regret not getting a pro (expensive or not) to do their wedding shots. I have seen time and time again, people saying that they don't care, but when they get all those disposable cameras developed and when Uncle Fred gives them his disc, they realise there is nothing worth framing - sad and a very unfortunate way to learn a lesson. These people then tell their friends etc "from experience, don't do it, make sure you get a pro", but then their friends are like, nope Uncle Bill will be fine, again, a hard way to learn a lesson. I have noticed no one learns from the lesson until it has happened to them. Secondly, I have discoved, in my area, that there are two types of wedding photographers. 1. Dirt Cheap, gives away all the negs, no real understanding of composition, exposure etc 2. The Pro, $2k plus, you get good quality. There isn't anything in between. This is where I come in. I am offering people packages from $500 right up to $2000. I don't just point and shoot, and my quality and creativity doesn't waiver if the client spends less money. So people are still getting the quality, without the hefty price, but also, for $500 they realise they aren't getting the bells and whistles, and they aren't getting 12 hours of coverage either. All they want is a few good photos to hang up.
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David A. Bliss |
Gregory, it is you who are playing word games. I have made the clear distinction between the 3 levels that have been discussed. I have said that absolutely someone with a good working knowledge of a camera could take wedding pictures, and could quite possibly end up with very good shots. The original statement on this thread implies someone who does not have a good working knowledge of a camera. The statement wasn't that he goes shooting a lot, or even a fair amount. It wasn't that he felt he has a good understanding of ftop and shutter speed and lens choice. The statement was that he took some pictures last summer that turned out well. If his friends want to have him shoot their wedding, more power to them. I sincerly hope everything turns out well for them. But in your argument you are implying that there is no specialty in photography, and that anybody who has every taken pictures will be able to take good pictures. It is not ego to think that someone who has spent a lot of time and effort in specializing in something is going to be better than someone who hasn't. It is insulting to imply that anyone could do the job as well.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
All celebrities get divorced because when they talk about celebrity marriages on the news, they're getting divorced.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
"But in your argument you are implying that there is no specialty in photography, and that anybody who has every taken pictures will be able to take good pictures" To love this comment, log in above February 12, 2006 |
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
"But in your argument you are implying that there is no specialty in photography, and that anybody who has every taken pictures will be able to take good pictures" You're not getting any of what I said, because I didn't say that or imply it. And I'll try to make it clear one last time. Good candids, as an example, if you have a knack for getting them, that's not going to change just because you go to a wedding. Be insulted if you want to, but if you're at a birthday party, street festival, whatever you can think of, timing, angles, juxtaposition, it still carries over to weddings. You're changing the subject, event, but you're still going to be doing the same things to get good pictures. Put a qualitative hypothetical number on this guy's pictures(1-10, 1-100, whatever you want) give it a 5. He can very well do a 5 at this wedding. And if he did a 5 with his other pictures, doing a 5 at the wedding will meet expectations. So if you still don't get that taking good pictures of one thing carries over to other areas, I can't do anything else.
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David A. Bliss |
I am now regretting getting involved in this thread. I am not a wedding photographer. The only reason I joined it in the first place was to refute what I took as an implication by Jerry that if you can't afford an experienced pro photographer for a wedding, you shouldn't have any pictures taken. Jerry and I came to an understanding on that point, at least I think and hope we did! ;-) Gregory, let me give you a little background. I was on a site that was designed for reviews of work posted. There were very few, maybe a couple, professional (meaning making money on their work) photographers, and I don't think any of them were full time photographers who didn't supplement their income by other means. There were some amazing photographers on the site, though, and some of the people I have remained good friends with, and we work together to try and grow our ability and community together. With that said, there were many, many people on the site that took point and shoot pictures. Remember, the site was designed for reviews, if you posted your work, you expected to get reviews. If you promoted your work, you would expect to get a number of reviews, 20 or more. A lot of the pictures that were posted were very poor snapshots. These members more often than not were very offended by any review that pointed out flaws, gave pointers on how to improve, or basically gave any review other than how wonderful the picture was. I am a very pleasant reviewer, so that you don't think it was my attitude that was causing this reaction. I was nominated for reviewer of the month many times. Everyone who reviewed honestly received this type of attitude. I know this is long winded; I will get to my point. These people picked up a camera recently for some reason. Someone gave them one, or they bought a lower to mid range P&S digital, took some pictures, and their friends and family told them how wonderful the pictures were. So (and I don't fault them for this, everyone starts somewhere) they started posting their work on this particular site, expecting rave reviews. When they didn't get them, instead of critically looking at their work, they just copped an attitude, and refused to accept any tips for improvement, even if it was from someone who had over a decade of photo knowledge and study. After having been on that site, I am a little sensitive to the attitude that anyone who pushes the shutter of a camera is a photographer. A photographer is an artist, who is constantly trying to improve, who has a very thorough knowledge of the tools, who has an understanding of composition... If someone understands they need to learn those things, and is willing to learn and grow, and become an artist, I am always willing to help or encourage them, no matter how much of a beginner they are. If you can't honestly understand or agree with what I am saying, or think that ANYONE who has ever used a camera can shoot an entire days worth of quality photos, then we are at an impasse. I have been very clear on the differences between artists and casual point and shooters from my very first post.
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David A. Bliss |
Gregory, we posted over each other. I DID say that it could carry over. I said "Of course an "amateur," or less experienced photographer might take some great pictures." "From looking at your website, I would say you have enough knowledge to be able to take very good wedding photos." We really are missing each others points, I think. We seem to be arguing two different points. I was simply going by what was told to us in the first post of the thread, and, yes, I probably made some assumptions, but I took out of it that it was someone who had not taken a lot of pictures, and didn't know much about cameras. As I said before, if his friends are comfortable with him shooting the wedding, more power to them. I truly hope for both their sakes it works out.
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Irene Troy |
Okay – I started this thread because, to me, it was humorous. Now it has gotten into an area I did not anticipate, which is fine. However, I need to clarify some things about this one guy and his photography: he told me that he had a P&S camera that he used at a picnic type event and some of the pictures were “nice”. He was borrowing a camera from his father to take pictures at the wedding. He had never used this camera or any other SLR. He had never used interchangeable lenses or done any serious photography. In fact, what little photography experience he had was limited to shots made at family/friend events and those were the type shots that most people take at these type events. He couldn’t tell which camera he was going to use nor what lenses he had. He even asked me what type film he should use and seemed not to know if the camera was digital or film. Folks – this guy didn’t have a clue! This was not a case of someone who has limited experience with weddings and who is the prime photographer for a wedding; this was not a case of someone (like me) whose experience is primarily in nature photography, but who is roped into making images for a wedding. If I had to I might be able to produce some okay wedding images. I have some idea of what is entailed and I do know the difference between various lenses, what low-light does to metering and how to exposure in various lighting conditions. Perhaps some outdoor photographers could take their experience and translate it into portrait or wedding photography and produce good images. I’m not sure that I could do this, but, then I’ve never tried so have no real opinion on this idea. But, I do know, from talking to some wedding photographers, that in order to produce really good images there is equipment used that I do not own. When I go out to shoot wildlife (hummm – a bad turn of phrase!) I first learn everything I can about the animal I am going to photograph. IMHO, this is the key to successful animal shots. I then take whatever equipment I think I will need – and lots that I probably won’t use – and I try to remember everything I have learned about getting great shots. Even then, I am not always successful. I suspect that a good wedding photographer does something very similar before they ever head out to shoot the wedding. Someone who has spent most of their photography career shooting portraits or weddings may have the primary same skill set that a wildlife photographer has, at least the technical aspects of using a camera; however they may lack the secondary skill set that an experienced wildlife/nature photographer develops over time. This analogy works both ways – no matter what your specialty, you develop that a secondary skill set that is often hard to even articulate to someone outside your area of expertise. This secondary skill set is, IMHO, what separates the good from the great in any field.
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Craig Paulsen |
anybody can shoot a wedding if they have a camera. Doesn't mean that the pictures will be good. Just like anybody could drive a race car. They most likely won't keep up with the pack and might even cause an accident, but they could do it and no one would know until they started moving down the track. The couple won't know till they get there pictures(too late) I actually don't think that someone would just say I'm going to shoot a wedding without experience. They might shoot over the shoulder of another photographer(like I did in my above story). They are most likely just yanking your chain. And if they aren't then they must be taking crazy pills.
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x |
i'm just glad that it's only photography. I mean, even in the worst case, no one will die as a result of the photography. unlike the tone if this had this been a betterbrainsurgery.com website.
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Bob Cammarata |
This brings us to the question I asked on a similar post: "Would you hire a proctologist to perform brain surgery?" (Hey,...they're both doctors.) ...It might be fun to send out a group of wedding photographers into the wild to locate and photograph a specifc species of rare insect, reptile, flower or whatever and see what comes back. I think that this exercise will prove that while the techniques of capture may be indeed similar, the knowledge and experience one gains in his or her specific interest or "speciality" will not easily carry over without consequence.
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Kerry L. Walker |
""Would you hire a proctologist to perform brain surgery?" (Hey,...they're both doctors.)" I did! That's what's wrong with me now.
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Jay A. Grantham |
I did it the other way around.. now I'm a smart... Couldn't pass it up.. sorry.
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Kerry L. Walker |
Good one, Jay!
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Damien Sim |
Crap! Reading your responces makes me realize that I've been living on borrowed time. As of April 10th, it would be my 5th wedding that I'm doing for almost free (will work for food). Will probably start charging people money after my brother's wedding (breaking another rule here by doing sibling's wedding). I do manage to get decent shots with the correct exposure (shoot in qunatity, worry about quality later), but sometimes I feel that I lack the artistic flair for taking pictures. Planing to get a fast tele lens soon, hopefully before my brother's wedding, to at least get a better chance to get better photos.
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BetterPhoto Member |
Proctologist? Brain surgeon? What's the difference?
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Bob Chance |
I have a wedding to shoot next month in New Jersey. Years ago I worked as an assistant for a professional wedding photographer on a couple of his jobs and I have done a few on my own. Usually, if a bride/groom is asking a friend to take pictures at their wedding, it's because they simply can't afford a professional. Usually, the pictures aren't always high up on the list of priorities and when you think of all the other things that go into a wedding/reception (cake, gowns, tuxes, catering, decorations) it can be a pretty long list. For the last wedding I shot and the one coming up, for what I'm charging, at a considerble loss, I'm simply doing the basic editing on the pictures and copying them to a CD. They can take it to whomever they want for the prints. But in both cases they are well aware that I am not a professional wedding photographer and I do not profess to be one. They just seem happy that at least someone with some camera and picture taking knowledge will be there in lieu of a Pro. As I said, usually by the time the get everything else for the wedding and start thinking about pictures, there isn't any money left. And too often in this day, people are only thinking about the moment, and not thinking about the fond memories of that moment the pictures would bring. Bob
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