 Jonathan Travis |
What graduated ND filter setup? I'm in need of some advice as to what brand of graduated ND filter I should buy, and what accessories that filter will call for. I'm Not looking for an expensive one, just one that'll do the job well. Also if you know of a good place I could purchuse the equipment, that would also be great.
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robert G. Fately |
Jon, graduated NDs come in two basic flavors - the screw-on types that fit just like any other filters, and the square (usually 4x4 inch) type that require an adapter of some sort to affix to the front of the lens. While the former is certainly more convenient, the graduation zone is in the middle of the circle. This is fine when the photo you're going to take is of a sunset where the horizon is in the middle of the frame, but can be less ideal if you want to add more foreground and put the horizon line 3/4 of the way up. The square filters allow for you to shift the filter in the holder such that the graduation line can be placed wherever you want (that's why they need to be so big). I think Cokin is the big name in this field (at least popularity-wise) - their A line seems pretty reasonably priced. I believe that the differences between these and the more costly filters (even from Cokin) is the material from which they're made, and thus any distortions that they might introduce.
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Mark Feldstein |
Howdy Jon: I've used 4x4 resin filters for years and now rarely use a threaded screw-on glass filter. The system I've got is from Hitech, which makes high quality filters at reasonable prices, and they're sold through B&H, http;//www.bhphotovideo.com. Insofar as I'm aware, Cokin doesn't make the larger 4x4's. They're smaller and are used in the Cokin P ring system. The disadvantage to that is I don't think Cokins will work with the larger medium format lenses. Hitech, Lee, Calumet, and a couple of others, all work with medium format. A major advantage to these systems aside from the points Bob made, is that even though you may have lenses different sizes and types of filter mounts, say 42mm, 72 mm, bayonet 60, etc., you still only need one set of filters and a single holder. You just buy the rings you need to fit the holder to whatever lens size you've got. The holders also allow you to stack filters and to use, for example, a graduated neutral density along with a special effects graduated sunset filter and others. Since the filters are flat you can store more of them in less space than regular filters. And not only can you use them to hold color correction filters when shooting color but also contrast filters when shooting black and white. They're all available and you just score the filters you want as you need them. As for durability, as I said, I've had mine for nearly 10 years now. I've never had one of them chip, flake, crack, peel,or warp. Well, I did have one break from operator error when a camera on a tripod went nose down in the wind. No sandbag on the tripod. :<( Take it light
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Jonathan Travis |
Thanks Guys. I have a few more questions though. Let's say I wanted to buy a 4x4 Hitech Graduated ND filter for 67mm(filter size)lens.(Nikkor 18-70mm)What would I need, precisely? I'm asking this because I would most likely buy it off the internet, and online mailorders(like B'n H) aren't very clear as to what exactly I need. Also, am I able to position this particular filter the way I want?(slide it up and down?) Thank you all immensely!
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George Anderson |
Cokin P size filters work fine in medium format, up to 72mm at least, I know I use one on my 6x7 Bronica wide-angle lens. Hi-Tech makes good grads in the Cokin P size. Cokin makes a good filter holder, but I think their grads are a definite step down in quality. For Cokin P size filters, you would get a Hi-Tech or Singh Ray filter(s) in that size and choice of grad level (0.6, 0.9 etc) and choice of edge transition (hard, soft). Next, you need a Cokin P filter holder AND a filter adapter ring, size 67mm. I would get the original Cokin P holder, not one of the Chinese knockoffs, they aren't as well made.
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Mark Feldstein |
OK Jon: First you need to pick out the graduated N.D filter. There are 3 of them, but initially, I'd go with the darker, I think it's .9. Then you need a filter holder, this is the priciest part of the rig and runs about 100 bucks. But you only need one and even under heavy, daily use, never have to replace it. The holders have slots for three filters, although you can add a ring to the front that let's you attach a second holder that'd give you six total slots. Last but not least, you need a 67mm threaded lens to hitech holder mounting ring. That attaches to the back of the holder, has two knurled knobs that loosen to position the holder at any angle anywhere in the visual field, and hooks the rig to the lens. That's your basic set-up. By the way, apparently I misspoke about the cokin P ring sizes and they will work with MF equipment though I'm not exactly sure what size their filters are. OK, here's two links Jon. The first is to the Hitech catalog at 2filter.com And for the adapter rings; 67mm threaded to MK4 holder is at See what ya think. Let me know if you've got more questions about these things. Personally, I think they're great. Take it light Jon. ;>)
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George Anderson |
Wow, $100-150 bucks just for a filter holder? You can get a complete setup in Cokin P size - Hi-Tech 2- or 3-stop grad, wide-angle Cokin filter holder & adapter ring for $65. Try Filter Connection, www.2filter.com. Cokin P filter holders will fit up to an 82mm lens. Most people find the 2-stop (0.6)grad to be the most versatile, unless you're really shooting in hard contrast conditions i.e. desert sunrise. And multiple filter holders tend to vignette with wide-angle lenses.
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Mark Feldstein |
Hi George. First, you get what you pay for. Like I mentioned, I've been using my Hitech ring for over 10 years. Cokin holders won't fit the larger telephoto Hasselblad or other large MF lenses that are 90 or 97 MM in diameter, the Hitech will. I also think the Cokin will vignette at 67mm with wide angle MF lenses like a 40 or 50 distagon. Also, given the quality of plastic Cokin makes their holders from, last time I checked anyway, I think spending 65 bucks on a holder and AR is a waste of money. Thin plastic, as I'm sure you guys know, doesn't hold-up well in freezing climates. All the Hitech rings are made from brass. So while you're absolutely right George in that Jon could save some money initially, in the long run, I think buying something once that lasts, beats buying something over and over again when it cracks, chips, strips, or falls apart. ;>) BTW Jon, if you use a circular polarizer on your lens, attach the Hitech ring to it, set the polarizer first, then attach the Hitech holder to the ring and adjust your ND or whatever filter to where you want it.
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George Anderson |
"First, you get what you pay for" Well, Mark, sometimes you get what you pay for, and sometimes you just pay too much. $132 for a metal filter holder seems way too much to me, that's what we used to call a 'ripoff'. "Also, given the quality of plastic Cokin makes their holders from, last time I checked anyway, I think spending 65 bucks on a holder and AR is a waste of money. Thin plastic, as I'm sure you guys know, doesn't hold-up well in freezing climates. All the Hitech rings are made from brass. So while you're absolutely right George in that Jon could save some money initially, in the long run, I think buying something once that lasts, beats buying something over and over again when it cracks, chips, strips, or falls apart." I've never broken any of my Cokin P holders, not even the ones I sawed in half to reduce vignetting. If my camera tripod did fall over one day, I think I'd rather have the plastic holder smash and absorb the blow, then just get another, rather than watch the brass ring deform my camera lens threads. For the price you're paying you would have to break 13 Cokin holders of them in a row to equal the price difference. And since Jonathan wasn't "looking for an expensive one, just one that'll do the job well" I think the Cokin P holder will do just fine for him, 'freezing climate' or not. As do the majority of the pros on nikonians.org or photo.net who recommend the same exact setup! "Cokin holders won't fit the larger telephoto Hasselblad or other large MF lenses that are 90 or 97 MM in diameter, the Hitech will. I also think the Cokin will vignette at 67mm with wide angle MF lenses like a 40 or 50 distagon." "..the reason I recommended the .9 is because it's varigated / graduated and can be adjusted in the holder to lesser degrees of density, positioning the filter where he wants it.." There's no difference between the 2 and 3-stop Hi-Techs except the intensity of filtration. Naturally you get more with the 3-stop. The edge transition is optional, either hard or soft in both 2 and 3-stop versions. The Hi-Tech 'hard' is more like other filters 'soft' or 'standard' transition, and overall more versatile. "Personally, I don't like the Filter Connection for a lot of reasons, especially their prices." Well, Filter Connection is cheaper than B&H, and for me, a lot faster. I always deal with the guy who owns the place, he's quite knowledgeable and always knows what's in immediate stock and what isn't.
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Sharon Day |
I really have very little to add to this except a Cokin P system that's supposed to work on lenses up to 82mm doesn't work well on a lens I have that's 77mm.
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Mark Feldstein |
So let's see where we are now: You can use a saw to modify the molded plastic Cokin rig so it'll work properly, nice touch. And, it doesn't vignette, except when it does. And it'll apparently absorb impact without distorting the rings. Of course, neither did my Hitech when it went nose over. Yes indeedy doody, I want a filter system that I need to carry a hack saw around to make it work properly. And, I suppose, rather than buying something bigger than he needs right at this moment, he can just buy a new set-up if at some point he changed to another camera system. So, you prefer to buy for the present rather than plan with an eye toward considering the possibilities in the future. Which is fine for some. But how many photographers do you know who have drawers filled with filters they can't use anymore, or bags of step rings that they can't even recall what lenses they stepped to. Did you know that Alan is the distributor for Hitech in the U.S. If what you say is true, then as a distributor he's undercutting the prices of his own sellers. That would be pretty crummy, and I don't think really think Alan would do that. He may have lower prices on Cokin, I don't know (or care) what it sells for. Besides, if you don't buy Hitech stuff, how would you know who's really cheaper anyway? Personally, I prefer B&H, which, btw, really is cheaper on most Hitech items and get them out to you (well, not you George) within a few days and overnight if necessary. But until the next time, I defer to you as the worlds foremost authority. ;>)
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Jonathan Travis |
Thanks everyone! You've all been very helpful. Jon
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George Anderson |
"So let's see where we are now: You can use a saw to modify the molded plastic Cokin rig so it'll work properly, nice touch. And, it doesn't vignette, except when it does. And it'll apparently absorb impact without distorting the rings. Of course, neither did my Hitech when it went nose over. Yes indeedy doody, I want a filter system that I need to carry a hack saw around to make it work properly." It's obvious, Mark, you've never used the Cokin P system at all, nor met anyone who has, or you wouldn't have made that comment. Originally the P holder only came in a 3-filter capacity. Many of us ended up sawing off the extra two slots as they weren't necessary (who adds that many impediments to good glass anyway?) and prevent vignetting with very wide angle lenses (Incidentally, that happens to ALL multi-filter square holders, not just Cokin P). Cokin saw what was going on and now makes a 1-filter sloted 'wide-angle'version, so sawing is no longer needed. But the holder seems to be plenty strong no matter what you do to them. "And, I suppose, rather than buying something bigger than he needs right at this moment, he can just buy a new set-up if at some point he changed to another camera system. So, you prefer to buy for the present rather than plan with an eye toward considering the possibilities in the future." No, I prefer the saving of $150 or more for the filter holder/ring/P-size Hi-Tech grad combination, over an expensive 4x4 Hitech metal filter holder, overpriced ring adapter, and more expensive 4x4 square format grads unnecessary to the vast majority of camera applications. You're intent on coming up with 'what-if' scenarios to justify expenditure of a lot more money. But people can decide for themselves what makes sense for them. It's really funny - over at photo.net, they're arguing about needing to use a holder AT ALL and just hold the gels over the lens. I think that's economizing too much, but I do think most people without unlimited budgets would be better off concentrating on getting good filters, rather than fancy holders for them. You are apparently again misunderstanding my comments about filters, Mark. As I said above, I use Hi-Tech and think their grad filters are great, and I think Cokin grads area definite step down. It's just more rational to buy Hi-Tech in the Cokin P size and use them in a Cokin P holder and save a heck of a lot of money. I always found better deals for Cokin accessories and Hi-Tech P grads at FilterConnection than B&H. You can buy all this Cokin stuff at B&H if you want to, it's probably going to cost more. "But until the next time, I defer to you as the worlds foremost authority." Not the world's greatest, by a long shot. But I have actually used the Cokin P size grads and holders, so I do have a definite advantage in that. George.
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Glen Taylor |
I use the P series holder with both HiTech and Tiffen P Series glass ND grad filters. No problems, and I like the longer vertical length of the P series filter. Never had any problems with vignetting on lenses through 77mm, but I only use 1 filter. Of course, most of the time you're not shooting wide open on tripod anyway.
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Sharon Day |
I haven't had a problem with vignetting on the 77mm lens. It's not a wide angle but rather a telephoto lens. The problem I'm having is after the ring is screwed on the lens you can't get the filter holder over the ring unless you back off the ring. I use Singh Ray. I hate the idea of the ring coming off with one of those attached. It's just a junky setup IMHO. I guess the P series in HiTech and Tiffen will hold other brand filters such as Singh Ray?
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Glen Taylor |
Interesting. I always leave the ring permanently snapped into the holder and just screw the whole magilla onto the lens, then slide in the grad. It works for me. I have another P holder for smaller diameter lens with a screwed-on stepdown (or is it step-up? ring). That is a big help. Otherwise it just takes too long to snap in various sizes of rings into the holder. HiTech, Singh-Ray, and Tiffen all make dedicated P-series size filters designed specifically for the P holder. I think Lee does too, but don't quote me on that.
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Sharon Day |
I should probably leave the ring and holder snapped togther too. Cokin doesn't work well for me. I don't know what the problem is but my polarizing filter will not turn in the holder so I usually end up turning it holder and all. The way it attaches to my 77mm I can't turn holder and all. Funny thing is the Singh Ray polarizing filter turns ok in the holder. I really dislike the color cast of a Cokin polarizing filter as well. I have a Nikon polarizing filter for my macro lens I like a lot better. Of course it cost a lot more too.
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