 Pam M |
The ever sensitive subject of...gasp... Critique I wanted to place this in a different category but it's not on the drop down list. --Specifically Critique Qustions-- if someone would like to move it, feel free ... Do I go too far back in the Internet netiquette history? I feel like one of those old geezers that shakes their head over the imputence of the young ... but the young are usually imputent because the generation between the geezers and the youth did not properly instruct the youth ... So the Internet history lesson goes like this: It use to be common courtesy I respectfully submit that if this technique were to be applied to the critique area, BetterPhoto would leap to an even higher ranking. People are tired of being just another bloke holding onto another camera ... they really want input (I have the private emails to prove it LOL) ... WELL THERE IS ONE EXCEPTION ... I usually only give a critique type response to those who ask by specifically placing the photo into critique themselves. Then there is this: Everyone has opinions but over and over I hear "But I could never give a critique, I'm too new, too uneducated, tooo ..... " Critique is (contrary to popular opinion) opinion and opinion does not need to be rude nor obnoxious. Everyone can say "you know ... that color there ... it's distracting to me" ... "that shape there ... maybe it doesn't really add to the message ... it might even detract ... at least for me." "you see that line there? what would happen if you redirect it?" "you see that little spot there? it's possible to fix that unless it means something to you ... " Also, why do I hear "no one's ever commented on my photos before ... thanks for the input ..." This usually happens when someone else brings their photo into critique with a really helpful, encouraging remark. Am I simply so brazen as to bring my own photo into conversation? I think not. I think others are just unaware that people at BetterPhoto do not operate under the same rules of play ... thank goodness. Still, can't there be something somewhere that specifically guides a person to believe they can intro their own photo into discussion? So anyway ... just dropping in to hope for more for everyone. I'm not able to comment as often as I would love to and there's people over there in critique ... you know dieing on the vine so to speak. And no ... please I'm not interested in receiving private messages re this topic ... if you have opinion ... gently, respectfully say it here. You are even permitted to roll your eyes at me. I'm old. I'll just sake my head over you. LOL (ok yes that's a joke) have fun,
|
|
|
|
||
|
John P. Sandstedt |
Well Pam, I've read this three times and must ask, "What are you trying tosay?" If someone asks for a critique of an image, responders should provide "a constructive critique." In general, comments suggesting removal of spot od isconcerting color, etc. may be very appropriate. One major issue remains that many folks asking fo a critique seek input, not on one or two images but, rather, on their entire gallery. This can be an intrusion on the critics time but, more importantly, most galleries do not reflect the best images, rather all the images the "gallerist" likes. As such, there are lots of marginal images on display. I think no one should insert his/her own image into a thread critiquing someone's picture - even if it may be the same subject. That's rude and now sets up inappropriate "competition." That is can be done is neither good or bad as fara BP.com is concerned. But, perhaps, that type of competition should be reserved to a private communication. If there is a critique of the BP site's Q&A it might the fact that it's grown so large that new members do not have an effective search engine to find the answer to a question. Thus, we find ourselves responding over and over to the same issue [the most recent one I note was adding some color to a B&W picture.] The reason that you often hear, "No one has ever commented on my picture," is probably because images haven't been shown and critique hasn't been requested. That's not surprising - as most of is share or pictures with immediate family [always supportive] and not "accomplished photographers." However, one thing I've noted, especially through participation in staetwide competition, is that a lot of it is about "The Ego Trip." That brings me full cirrcle to the need to be ruthless in assessing your own pictures and truly limiting the images upload for critique, the galleries, etc. Now . . . what did I say????
|
|
|
|
||
|
Kerry L. Walker |
Old geezers? Hey, I resemble that remark!
|
|
|
|
||
|
Sharon Day |
Interesting discussion! Kindly...I feel if anyone wants critique they should ask for it. They should either begin the thread themselves by making the first comment and placing it in CC or they should ask for critique in the description of their images. I think it's presumptuous to offer a critique if the photographer doesn't ask. Maybe someone is just entering the contest for fun and likes their photo the way it is. I see no reason to assume they need/want critique. Some people have more of a gift at critique than others and some go into it intending to be rude. I'm somewhere in between if asked. I am usually so focused in explaining what I see that could be improved that I forget to say what I like about an image. I'm trying to do better though. I'm reluctant to offer critique even when asked. As for members who want comments. It's been my experience here at BP that unless you are willing to be a part of the community you'll have more difficulty getting regular comments. It's a give and take thing here, and it didn't take me long to figure that aspect out. I like BP because if you see a photo you enjoy you can tell the person so. I enjoy commenting on photos I like. Also, it's nice for anyone who doesn't participate in the community to at least say a "thank you" after they've received a page of comments. If I notice a photographer doesn't ever do that I assume they don't really care whether they get comments or not. A few members have started a critique thread in the Q&A. Hopefully those dying on the vine will notice it and join in. It can be a helpful thread. Just my 1 cent worth :D.
|
|
|
|
||
- Bob Cournoyer Contact Bob Cournoyer Bob Cournoyer's Gallery  |
I had a long response written and then erased it. In a nutshell, I feel that if a photo is entered into the contest, then it's fair game. Not just for "ohhh nice shot" or "beautiful scene", but for the polite (albeit subjective) comments on how the observer thinks it might be improved. Thank you....:-) Bob
|
|
|
|
||
|
Corinne M. Thompson |
A few thoughts come to mind after reading this thread: 1. When I joined this site, I spent alot of time to familiarize myself with it. I read(and still do)threads, blogs, newsletters,etc.It was several months later before I uploaded my first photos. I also "saved" threads that I thought might come in handy at a later date. 2. I ALWAYS do a search before I ask a question. Most of the time, I do find my answer, albeit it may sometimes take alot of "searching" thru threads. 3. Comments? Well it is definitely a give and take like Sharon says. If you want comments you need to make comments, when you get comments you need to make comments back. That just seems to be the way it works best! 4. Critiques...I have developed my "own personal policy" on this issue. If a photo is placed in the "Critique" category, I will respond if I have something relevant to say. I have learned NOT to make critique "publicly" on a photo. I only do it thru "contact" directly to the photographer. My only exception to this, is that thru the thread Sharon referenced above, I know which people like critique on their photo directly and so have done so. My gallery is open to critique to anyone in any way, shape, or form they want to do so; constructively of couse. Okay, I think I said enough! Have a great day everyone!
|
|
|
|
||
|
Pam M |
LOL John, I'm not entirely sure of all that you did say. Let me try ... Paragraph: "If someone asks..." I totally agree with all you said ... it is the crux of what I am trying to say. Paragraph: "It can be an intrusion..." Ask your fellow BPer to be more specific as you can give much better input that way. I have learned to ask for one or two images that they really have concerns or hopes for and I have also learned to ask them to tell me re any specific concerns they already have for the image. And I reply to them by posting it in discussion ... I do worn them that this is what I do. I get about a 30% reply rate. If they've uploaded six or seven to the Constructive Critique forum ... I chose the one that I find most interesting ... it's their right to upload many and mine to respond to one. Paragraph "...no one should insert..." agree/disagree ... i've seen some really odd insertions outta the blue stuff ... but you have to keep in mind that other sites use "aviators" in the signature. I figure that's what these people are use to and they're trying to figure out a way to do it here, too. I've also seen some insertions that made me go "ohhhhh.... I see." and they were very helpful. Paragraph "...critique of the BP site's Q&A..." Ok call me clueless. I had no idea that Q&A was doing critique ... truthfully I figured out right off that I wanted to focus on the Constructive Critique Forum so I've not been over to Q&A. I'm actually kind of confused to find out that critique would be in Q&A since it is so much better served over in the other section when a person can upload a specific image into discussion ... again ... I'm brought to advocating a clear path for the site user. But while you've tossed it in ... I'll totallllly agree about the ineffective search ... if a body doesn't understand how to use Google's site search ... ackk! But on the other hand I have a discouraging piece of info to reveal to you. I'm an old forum leader from another place and another time and I've hung out in a great many forums ... and ... yes I have always had a tendency to ask disturbingly long questions ... BUT oh yeah ... Your piece of info ... People do not read FAQ's, articles, etc ... unless it is a link in a thread that they started or are following. For example ... ME "the pro" sent an email to a specific instructor just this last week asking him if he had articles on BP. As I pushed the send button, I recalled the list of articles on BP and felt stupid ... and I continued to feel stupid and humbled when I received back a very nice reply pointing me to the articles ... geeze! THat said ... It is incredibly nice when I can place a link in a thread to a piece of info here on BP instead of off site ... but usually ... I send them off site. Don't tell anybody but I've even written out instructions on how to post a second image to your own thread and I send people to it on a regular basis. Yes! absolutely ... BP is wearing the old timers out and wearing our patience thin by asking them to literally repeat themselves over and over. Last paragraph: You lost me. ... more ...
|
|
|
|
||
|
Sharon Day |
Bob, I sure wouldn't have minded reading the longer version! At the risk of sounding wishy washy I agree with that to some extent.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Pam M |
Sharon, I have noticed your critiques over in the critique forum and you do a very good job. You are right. It is easy to focus on what is wrong and forget what is right. I have to work hard at that. I've developed a little routine for myself and sometimes I remember to use most of it. I try to open with an encouraging remark, do the critique, and then close with a reminder that it is their image ... after all ... they are the one's seeing it in a larger format, they know their setting, and they know their audience. I mean some people want to stay "off kilter" of norm with a minimalistic mindset toward having a small audience. But as my daughter recently had to point out in one of her papers ... "unless one knows the rules, one cannot effectively break the rules in order to create new style" ... ok but wait that's a whole nother long thread ... I want to stick to the question of why isn't such a great community involved in great critique Ugg Bob, maybe I should have followed your course of action. Maybe I shouldn't write late at night ... Maybe I just want more than I should want as I always do of everything ... I shall try again though because this is hugely important to me and to others ... BetterPhoto is one of the most exceptional places on the web ... and as such ... it confuses people. People show up here with preconceived ideas of what to expect because ... gasp again ... they actually go to other sites ... they even post at multiple sites ... and because there is nothing in place to check these ideas, confusion is the order of the day. Even here in this post there are many many ideas that go back and forth several directions ... so how would a newbie know? I mean is it wrong for me to be clinging to and periodically expressing my strongly held belief that the Constructive Critiue forum should live up to it's name and Many Members should actually provide Constructive Critique ... and it should also happen in the open where all can benefit. oh and as to some being mean and some being more able etc etc etc ... so??? ... that's surely not you, is it? Most people here actually do avoid being mean about having an opinion ... A huge huge blessing ... so why not actually practice who we are? Very nice ... opinionated people ... who can and do avoid flame wars ... and give wonderful help to those who are asking in that dreadfully labled "Critique" area? And so therefore ... I guess what I am actually advocating is a set of really clear rules of the road for critique. AND a really clear path for one to follow to enter one's images into critique or to avoid it. Until such time as the forums themselves can be fixed ... perhaps we who have been here a bit can figure out a basic routine to follow and teach. Ok I know ya'll are going to be heartbroken on this ... but I'm out of time for today ;) So I'll talk to ya'll later ... figure it all out ... I'll be back to find out what the plan is. have fun,
|
|
|
|
||
|
Pam M |
oh wait ... one more thing ... like Shaon ... I kind of agree with you Bob ... but my own personal cynicism shows up right here in this very spot ... after they've entered it ... what good is the critique ... ok ... probably bad attitude ... bad logic ... i'll think about it. and I forgot to say that this business of knowing how to critique is muckity muck. All I did was become paranoid about wanting to give the right info ... so I did what every good paranoid geek does ... I went to the web. That's not who everybody is. BUT Have you noticed the images at the bottom of my gallery page?! bad horrible re basic rules of composition ... starting with just the rule of thirds. and very few people have called my hand on it. No one has ever even said ... "that moon looks like it's about to float right out of the picture" or "can you stick a little more land under that poor bird?" But because I'm paranoid and wanted to begin to give good sound advice ... I learned a whole lot more than I bargained for ... and i'll maybe redo them someday ... I digress ... BUT STILL That's just who I am and what I did. BUT ANYbody who is doing photography is developing "an eye" for detail ... therefore ANYbody who is doing photography should be able to say ... "mmm I love this and i'm not sure why but that that there is distracting" I repeat myself don't I? Why am I doing that? I don't know ... it's suppose to be my pet peeve ... to repeat myself ... ... this old geezer is going to go mutter into her cereal bowl now ... Hey it's only 11am here ... Ok one last thing ... I deeply appreciate being able to confidently bring this into discussion and be able to count on real conversation !! Thanks! have fun!
|
|
|
|
||
|
Samuel Smith |
i just wanted to post here so I can come back, after my brain quits hurting? sam
|
|
|
|
||
|
Sharon Day |
LOL Sam! I think it might be a nice feature if there were some guidelines pertaining to how to critique nicely. Perhaps on the page where you find the critique section. Couldn't hurt anything :).
|
|
|
|
||
|
Pam M |
LOL Indeed Sam! Sharon, I think that would be a great idea ... but here's the thing that John illuded to ...(I think) ... some time back there was a long thread ... many moons ago (which I need to correct something here ... it's not that I never check in on Q&A ... I just seldom have and it's been eons) ... there was discussion pleading for FAQ that was really meety and that sort of thing that we could refer newbies and non-readers to. Everyone thought it was a fine idea ... but ... there are priorities to be accomplished when running a web site and ... well ... as in all fine things slow movement is the order of the day. So ... and technically any good forum is this way ... whatever comes of this discussion will have to be for the members and by the members. Which if ever there was a group who could do this, it's this one. Ugg ok back to my own web site ... starting to purple passion hate databases and filters ... I've lost my own pic of the week!!! Agggg! have fun,
|
|
|
|
||
|
Samuel Smith |
well pam I also read your piece on industrial tool and now i'm half blind? whew, sam
|
|
|
|
||
|
Pam M |
LOL Sam! Please stop, focus, save yourself for the subject at hand! I'm really not that pleased with that particular critique ... sometimes I only think I know the English language ... I am also aware that I have a handicap ... I'm not very good at overcoming it ... but the pure volume of words that I can produce basically freaks people out in this day and age. but I'm hoping people will breathe a little, settle in, and actually come up with their own thoughts on this subject. and it's not so horrible if they don't critique like I do ... it will result in fewer freaked out users. and just incase anyone was is overly worried ... I got my pic of the wk back ... had to call for help ... what? refer to the help file? mmm i'm writing the help file. Now doesn't that just give you a whole new set of people to feel for? illude ellude ... oh right ... allude ... have fun,
|
|
|
|
||
|
anonymous |
My brain is hurting.... I really can't understand what this thread really means........LOL
|
|
|
|
||
- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Dosen't mean anything more than if you want somebody to comment on your photo, just ask somebody. Is it that deep and philisophical?
|
|
|
|
||
|
Dale Mickelsen |
It seems the conversation has gone from critique vs. judging an image. I appreciate critiques, the more I get from people the more critical I look at my photographs. Where would I find that "Internet History Lesson" mentioned?
|
|
|
|
||
|
Pam M |
Natalie, Gregory has it right ... except that there are people who ... a) are asking for critique aka comments and not getting it in the very forum that is named "critique" b) there are people who do not understand that they can bring their own photos into discussion for critique in the critique forum (and some are disappointed that their photos never get commented on ... this is not their fault because other forums have unusual habits and just run nilly willy commenting on anything and everything and eventually you get hit ... especially when uploads are run across the home page) c) there are people who get their feelings hurt if something critical is said and they didn't ask for critique ... ie member ONE brings member TWO's photo into discussion in the critique forum and doesn't do a soft-shoe, sweet song and dance critique. which in that case should really go over in friendly praise. d) anyone who goes over to do critique has to Pay attention to whether someone other than the original photographer brought the photo into discussion ... and if one wants to go an extra mile one has to go look at the originator's gallery and profile and find out if the orignal photographer left an open invite for critique. e) There are people scared to death to say that even the slightest thing might could be a little bit distracting in a photo ... even when the original photographer is begging to know bottom line: I just believe this community is brilliant enough and trusting enough in each other to do something to help this situation improve ... without waiting on leadership to arrive on white horses and save us. Dale, no idea where you're going with your opening sentence or how you got there ... the Interenet history lesson comes from usenet newsgroup FAQ's ... it's an ancient form of Internet communication that still exists ... that's what that newsreader thingy that is in outlook exress is for ... (not to be confused with the RSS newsfeeds that firefox handles so well) and it was the original basis of communication in forums ... but somehow all that got lost ... really reallly reallllly lost. Geeze now I feel reallllly ancient. I hear sleep is really great for headaches ... i'm reallllly going to try out the theory ... see I told you critique ... reallly reallly realllllly way too sensitive of a subject ... for reasons I cannot understand ... I officially give up this thread ... if someone else wants to take up the white flag, hide it and run off and try again ... let me know if there's a conclusion ... Maybe it's late, and maybe I don't understand what ya'll are trying to say to me ... BUT ... I totally feel like I spent a day typing in the wild blue yonder about critique when I could have been doing critique. No, I still don't want private comments. And no I'm not angry ... just very tired ... and way confused about why critique is such a difficult thing to discuss ... and hope for something new and good for. I mean these are still the very same things I encountered when I joined ... granted ... not so long ago as others ... but in forum years ... why i'm at least middle age, you know. ... Internet years i'm ancient ancient evidently. but in case anyone is wondering ... yes, it's great to give a critique and watch the lights come on for someone ... it's really worth coming over and saying ... "well have you considered... "or "have you tried ..." ... If it hadn't been for Sharon Wack, Protacio Serna, Bill Goss, Miles Mitchell, and others ... well gee you could have been rid of me by now ... but they gave me real advice ... and now ... I dunno ... maybe giving constructive critique isn't a good idea after all ;) ttyl
|
|
|
|
||
|
Pam M |
Oh ok shoot me ... there is one more thing that finally dawned on me. The reason I do not feel comfortable saying one should never bring someone else's photo into critique is because of group B and because Katrina (McGuire I think) does it all the time with a very nice flair that I've never seen anyone get upset with. In fact, I believe her posts bring group B out of their places of reserve more than any one. ... so obviously the moral is ... if you do it ... do it gracefully. have fun,
|
|
|
|
||
|
Samuel Smith |
well pam, i've had time to digest a lot of this and so? i give critique on many photos in peoples galleries, wether they ask or not. I have been accused of not having any tack. ok. they were right. I really don't care. but yet I have to search myself to become a better person or at least try to be a little nicer or more subjective on my point of view. it does say constructive? i would never use someone elses photo to critique or make a point. kinda chicken I think. i just make myself available for those who want my very stupid opinion on, yeah my opinion? some galleries are snapshots. vacation pictures. so? these people are proud of their pictures, ok? well here we are! let them continue? that I think is a small diservice to those who want to become better photographers. yet it is a fine line as to who those people are. and yes last night I was one of those who thought about shooting you. but I thought it might be better if someone would just cut off two of your fingers. i am so laughing while I am typing this ??? so if a critique is given maybe a small disclaimer to let them know, yeah i'm an idiot?just pay attention, they don't sign my check! when I came to this site I gathered a whole new sense of knowledge. I am just a grain of salt on a pile of mashed potatoes. but once you put a little butter on it, m m m m m . boy I hope i'm on the right page? sambo
|
|
|
|
||
|
Pam M |
mmmm well I see you used your familial nickname to sign off this time. I must be on better terms ;) Look I don't care about the people who pay a little and get a great gallery to share with friends ... I don't think they care about critique either ... they are NOT putting their own pics in critique. And I guess I have to agree that if a person has put their pic into competition then they are by the very nature of their act asking for critique (although I don't know how to tell one from the other and I don't have the time I use to have so I really don't need to know ... but if someone wants to share that tidbit for everyone else ... please do.) The only people I'm really interested in are the people who are asking for critique IN critique and are either getting nada or "great pic" without one hint of a suggestion on how to improve (I tend to be one of the later because people think that just because I can and do critique that I have my images correct ... which is hogwash ... they're my images ... I know I have blindspots when it coms to my own images.) Well ok and I wish there was a way to let people know it's okay to put your own image into discussion. And I just feel like somebody somewhere is probably thinking this sort of thing because it would be human nature ... so just in case someone is thinking "Oh well why should we worry about the critique section ... she's obviously got it covered" ... uhh no I don't ... i'm not still sitting in the coffeeshop in Texas waiting for the next thing to come along in my life. It has come to me ... plus in March and April we realllly won't be around the computer so much. Plus it's just crazy to think that 3 or 4 people are all that should offer critique to people who are asking for critique ... why am I doing this? mmmmmm cause i'm a nut ... I get passionate about things that I love and I love BP and I know what BP critique meant to me and I just want the same for everybody else. I know I'm talking to ya'll like I have some sort of mmm what would be a good word ... familiarity ... when I know ya'll probably don't know me because only a few of you cross the border into the area where I hang out ... just as I seldom cross over into the area where ya'll hang out. ... but ... I just feel the urgency and I know where the people in the know hang out and I know that ya'll are prefectly capable, caring people ... i guess I don't know why there's so much phobia around the subject and i'm trying to tell you there shouldn't be ... and I think ya'll are able to do something about clearing up the phobias and misconceptions ... agggg ... even I am asking why I am banging my head over and over on this topic ... no ... cutting off two of my fingers wouldn't change a bloom'n thing ... I'd still type and I'd still repeat myself ... and I'd still beg ... like a crazy person. Sambo, I appreciate that you have tried so hard to figure out who I really am and what I really want. those actions alone are the reason I responded to your post ... otherwise I would'a just let someone else try to figure out if you were on the page ... see I can throw my hands up under the right circumstance ... but not when someone is really trying. i know that there are many people who would really appreciate your input over in the critique area. I hope to see and others over there often. have fun,
|
|
|
|
||
|
Samuel Smith |
i think if people want critique they should give critique in that section. which would give them a better understanding of what to look for, composition, contrast and etc. i have never been to the critique section.didn't even know it was there until a few months ago. before this post I didn't know who you were? I just thought if you had less fingers you might type less. I am still kidding pam. i do help people who ask me for help? and i'm not going to judge anyone on this site because of their opinion, including you. you seem to be very sincere in your quest for help. honorable,in my opinion. maybe I should check it out? sam
|
|
|
|
||
|
Pam M |
LOL actually Sambo you are quite correct .. a point I hadn't thought of ... the more one sees something done the easier it is to do it. and yes actually I did know you were kidding about the two fingers ... I was attempting to express my own anguish that it wouldn't slow me down. i would be honored to have your company in the critique forum ... well except ... I probably won't be over there today. I tried to post to an image late last night ... tadpole to be exact ... but I kept getting an error ... lets try an experiment ... I used the word buttocks ... i'm going to try using the word buttocks again in this post and see if that was the problem. i finally just sent that msg privately so seems that if that was the problem then that would have stayed the problem ok really ... they're yelling at me ... the family is ... something about food ... movie ... wooohooo a mid-day outing :-D ya'll stay here
|
|
|
|
||
|
Pam M |
LOL well I thought buttocks would have been some extreme censorship ... have fun ...
|
|
|
|
||
|
Craig Paulsen |
Why would you waste time with such nonsense, have you hit a brick wall in your photography, so decide to change your focus (no pun intended). Everyone has a different way of doing things. If I tell you how you should shoot then its my way not yours, dig deep into your creativity. If you can't compose something interesting on your own then maybe its not for you. Or just have fun with it and let it be
|
|
|
|
||
|
Pam M |
Ok ... it's official ... I'm rolling my eyes ... ... yeah ... I know the rest of you rolled your eyes alllllready. craig hun don't worry about it ... I hope you didn't get a headache from all the thought you put into that ;) hugs
|
|
|
|
||
|
This old forum is now archived. Use improved Forum here
Report this Thread |
||