 Marie Fields |
Total Number of Finalists Chosen Just wondering if anyone knows the criteria for how many finalists are announced per month? There doesn't seem to be a set "formula" and it seems that although the total number of monthly entries has increased dramatically in the past several months, the number of finalists is down (561). There were 733 in Oct., 873 in Sept., 986 in Aug., 1058 in July, and 1022 in June! I'm not complaining (I was lucky to have some finalists) but just curious as I see so many fantastic images submitted each month that are not selected and I realize that with the number of entries that's bound to be the case.... But when the number of finalists is unexpectedly low it indicates that the judges just didn't think those other images are worthy...??? I just feel so bad for all of these excellent photographers who are getting discouraged from the results of this contest...
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BetterPhoto Member |
Hi Marie, Thanks for your post and your thoughts on the contest finalists. Because I will be sure to share your concerns as to the diminishing number of finalists. Thanks,
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- Linda D. Lester Contact Linda D. Lester Linda D. Lester's Gallery |
Hi Heather, I didn't know you asnwered questions here. Thanks for taking your time.
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Gloria B. Wood |
So let me see if I understand! If a good image somehow gets OVERLOOKED in the very first round or first set of judges then it is just out...and if a less good image gets past the first round or set of judges then it still has a chance to become a finalist if it is somehow OVERLOOKED and advanced. Would that account for some Good images being overlooked as finalists and less good images advancing to become finalists???
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Rhonda Smith |
Well said Gloria... I'm interested in the answer to that too .
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Rhonda Smith |
I personally have been losing interest in entering daily .. getting a bit discouraged with the whole process. And when you see the numbers dropping every month.. I think it might help to know what some of this criteria is that the judges use..it would give us some 'direction' as entrants
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- Sherry Stricklin Boles Contact Sherry Stricklin Boles Sherry Stricklin Boles's Gallery |
Very interesting question, Marie. I always assumed there was a percentage of finalists until the recent aand dramatic drop in the numbers which proved me very wrong!
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Kaye Burazin |
I so agree with Gloria and Rhonda, it seems the same people get their entries into the finals good or bad. If it is based on first round choices by judges who like one particular style they keep repeatedly choosing that style while some good entries are being overlooked and passed up. I would think that only one entry per person per category should be the rule for choosing finalists. That way more people would stand a chance, spreading the wealth a little and not so many people would get frustrated. And again why is the amount of finalists chosen per month going down when the number of entries is going up??
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Brendan Knell |
I agree that they should make it one finalist per person per month. Because recently I've gotten so discoraged that I've just pretty much stopped entering. I think that I entered one pic last month and none this month and the month before last.
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Nicole Kessel |
I don't think the number of finalists should be limited. Usually the people that have more then one finalist are very deserving. They do limit everyone to one win per category. The finalists are like honorable mentions. My frustration is with seeing photos that in my opinion are okay but not great make finals and some really WOW! ones not even getting a nod. I'm curious as to how the judges look at the photos during the first round of judging. Personally, when I am scanning the entries I usually see a bunch of photos that look incredible by the thumbnail but, once you check out the full version there is very noticeable grain, noise, lack of sharpness, or whatever. But, somehow they still make finals. (Never see them win, though) It makes me feel like they are stealing the finalist spot of a more deserving photograph. Even in the contest guidelines it mentions how in order to win photos should be sharp (unless they intentionally have a shallow DOF), have correct exposure, and so on.
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Kaye Burazin |
After all is said and done, one final word from me regarding whether I was recognized by the judges as a winner or not. I have made many friendships and learned so much from this wonderful community of caring and generous photographers who share my passion for becoming a better photographer. Helping each other with advice, technique tricks and inspiration is what this site is all about for me. A medallion would just be the icing on the cake but not as valuable.
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- Linda D. Lester Contact Linda D. Lester Linda D. Lester's Gallery |
Kaye, I think you hit it on the head...we have made wonderful friendships here and I personally think it should make you want to work harder when you don't get one. And to say you only get one per entry you would lose interet for lots of people. The judges really have a hard job and I'm sure they miss things. I think the big thing is why have the finalist numbers dropped? I'm sure just getting the holidays over will help them. Everyone have a merry christmas!
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Gloria B. Wood |
Yes the friendships and interactions are very important for many people! Nevertheless, there are also many people who would like more clarity regarding how the contest actually works and why some very good images are overlooked and some less good images advance to the finals. I realize that the judges have a hard job, but is that not their job? Or is judging a volunteer activity?
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
People say overlooked like it was a photo stuck to the bottom of a stack that got accidentally put in the wrong file. If the judging were left to anyone else, they're wouldn't be 100% agreement.
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Gloria B. Wood |
What????
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Kerby Pfrangle |
Not everyone is going to judge things the same way or be in agreement with each finalist or winner. THe judges have a very hard task to go through this many photo's in a month. I personally think they do a good job if you look through the winners and finalists. There is some outstanding talent on Better Photo and it just hard competion. Just be thankful we have a wonderful site to display our work on and share with others. If you get a finalist or winner it is just an added bonus. Kerby
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Diane Dupuis |
This question has been asked several times before, in slightly different ways. http://www.betterphoto.com/forms/qnaDetail.php?threadID=10001 http://www.betterphoto.com/forms/qnaDetail.php?threadID=19347 http://www.betterphoto.com/forms/qnaDetail.php?threadID=8744 One of the points about limiting the number of finalists per category has been addressed - and we've basically been told they don't know whose photo they are judging - and therefore cannot sort that way, which I think is fair. Once the finalists are chosen though and they are picking the winners, they admit to knowing who the photographer is because they aparently do limit it to one win per category, which I also think is fair. My only point is that there is no way there were not 400 other deserving photos that could have received the silver finalist medallion (out of 22,200 entries!!!). They used to be able to find over 800 when there were 14,000 entries. I agree that offering free galleries has certainly raised the number of entries, and certainly many of them are not top notch, but many excellent photos are being overlooked. Feb. 05 - 860 out of 14,768 = 5.8% I know - I have too much free time on my hands! LOL! Happy Holidays to everyone here at BP - which is definitely a most wonderful community of talented photographers!
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Marie Fields |
Well said, Diane!
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Marie Fields |
....there were 18,600 entries in April.
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Kaye Burazin |
Bravo Diane,well said with great clarity!
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Gloria B. Wood |
Excellent clarification DDK!!! Thank you! I would like to point out that asking questions does not necessariy imply criticism or lack of appreciation and gratitude! We are not being disloyal when we ask for clarification of the process!
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Maverick Creatives |
Why would any hobbyist or professional care if his/her photograph was chosen? Has this contest become an arena for self gratification? I post photographs in the contest to show other members what I feel is my BEST attempt at getting a good photograph. It's because I'm proud of a particular experiment, setting or composition. I for one don't really care much about the contest results. If I get a mention fine, but what I really appreciate are the comments from the members that have taken a moment to view my work. Don't get to involved with the contest is my opinion. I'm here to learn and enjoy the companionship of like minded people. The Contest? It's just a small bonus. You want a real contest? Enter your photographs to a Stock agency. Just my thoughts Gary
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Diane Dupuis |
I'd say there are at least 750 hobbyists or professionals who care enough to enter here every month (22,200 entries divided by 30 (max per month)... Probably much more than that because certainly not everyone enters every day... It's OK if you're not into it. You could enter you photos for discussion without entering the contest you know Gary...Leave some room for those of us who care about the contest results ;-) Happy Holidays! DDK
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Nicole Kessel |
I would be lying if I said the contest didn't mean very much to me. It means a lot for me to receive a finalist or gold medallion. It took me over a year of entering photos to get my very first finalist. I don't have any photographer friends (other then online) that I get any feedback from. So, the recognition from a respected panel of judges as well as having a winner next to other outstanding photos makes me feel very proud to be amongst them. You won't see me drinking myself into oblivion or ball my eyes out if I don't place any one month though. I'm not that obsessed! But, I do get a little discouraged. In October I had a record number of entries and didn't place a single photo. I'm still here, I didn't jump off a cliff or anything! And I'm glad I didn't because I had one finalist this month that ended up winning a second place slot. It's all in good fun but, I won't sit here and say that placing in the contest isn't one of the highlights for me! I get antsy and look forward to the announcement each and every month. The harder it is to place and the less slots their are the more proud you should be for snagging a spot. If everyone received some sort of recognition what kind of contest would that be?
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Marie Fields |
I see what you're saying, Nicole... Yet, some consistency with the number of finalists should be expected. To suddenly and unexpectedly award a much lower number of finalists is an insult to the photographers who have entered excellent work and been denied the recognition that many of them deserve. Why only recognize 2.5% of the photos? There is an incredible amount of amazing photography entered into this contest and to have the number of finalists narrowed down so much just takes the motivation away from a lot of participants who have become totally discouraged...
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Connie J. Turner |
I agree with Gloria. I would also be interested to find out how the judging works. How it is set up ect. Connie
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Sharon Day |
I don't see any reason for BP to have a "quota" of finalists each month. When the numbers are low if I am awarded a finalist it just makes it that much sweeter. I don't like to think I've gotten one because they decided to raise the numbers to make people happy, but that's just me. I'm with Gary that I like to enter to share my photos each day. I'm bummed to be on dialup so I can't really go through all the entries every day as I was while on cable. Sharing with the community a big part of it for me. Before I found BP I viewed photos daily and uploaded to a photo site that was not a contest just to have some fun sharing photography. I still visit that site occasionally just to look at (can you believe it??) more photos. Not since going back to dialup up though LOL.
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Alison Greenwood |
Well, I am confused as to how there can be 10 x 2nd place winners in the category of people!
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Gloria B. Wood |
It would seem that in order for a contest or judging process to have credibility, the process should be reasonably well understood by those who participate. When there are unanswered questions or abiguity in the process, credibiity and trust in the process decreases. Therefore, it is in the best interests of BP that the contest be well-understood by the members and participants! I don't see the issues raised by members regarding the contest as whining and complaining, but efforts to restore confidence in a process that they participate in, sometimes on a daily basis.
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- Sherry Stricklin Boles Contact Sherry Stricklin Boles Sherry Stricklin Boles's Gallery |
I have thought that it would be better to have a more specific explanation of the rules/guidelines. Perhaps the lack of explanation is to leave the competition open and allow the judges more freedom in their choices. We are not bound with specific rules. But I do admit, I find a hard time "blindly" trying to figure things out. It's hard to rely entirely on your personal interpretation sometimes. As for photographers wanting finalist/winner buttons...In school, liked getting an A on my report card...In my job, I liked getting a pat on the back...As a mom, I like seeing my children succeed...And as a member of BP, I like when I see a finalist button under my picture. I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to succeed and be recognized for that accomplishment. That's what positive reinforcement is all about! =)
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Nicole Kessel |
I came across this thread where Jim explains the judging process. I thought you might all be interested. http://www.betterphoto.com/forms/qnaDetail.php?threadID=8259
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Marie Fields |
I STILL don't understand why the number of finalists is getting smaller.... ONLY 497 out of 23,300??? REALLY???
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
22,800 is a lot of babies, cats, flowers, and sunsets. And reflections in water drops on glass too.
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Rebecca A. Steed |
I guess this is what confuses me after reading the thread just posted by Nicole with Jim's response: "Then images are grouped by MEMBER and then by category to make sure that only the best work by each individual photographer and only images that were properly categorized make it to the next round. doesn't that seem to contradict itself? do they separate the photos by member or not?
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Marie Fields |
What does that have to do with my question, Gregory? It just seems like the judges are saying quite explicitly, that other than those 497 finalists, the REST of the 23,300 entries were not "winning" shots.... hard to believe.... especially when we see so many INCREDIBLE images entered on a daily basis (and they're not ALL "babies, cats, flowers, and sunsets" !)
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Yes they seperate by member, but they don't use a member name to do it. When judges pick a grand prize winner, aren't they saying explicitly that the rest are not grand prize winners? Redundancy, unoriginality, or just not a good photo. Reasons of many to not pick a winner. And reasons why you don't have the same number of winners, except for grand prize, first, second places. That's the only place to expect the exact same number. I know not every photo is babies, cats, etc... just like I know you don't actually expect all 23,300 to be winners.
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Terry R. Hatfield |
We don't want the judges to know who shot what" doesn't that seem to contradict itself? do they separate the photos by member or not? Each Member Has A Url And Each Photo Has An ID# Thus The Name Of The Photographer Would In Theory Not Have To Be Seen In Order To Judge The Contest, If Your Url Has Been Shortened By The Use Of A Nickname Its Possible They Would Know A First Name Only Becky:-)
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Sharon Day |
I think we can all safely say a lot of OUTSTANDING images don't make finalist, BUT what kind of honor is it if all great images are awarded finalist?? It would take a whole lot of the fun out of it for me and it would no longer be a CONTEST. I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason for every nice photo entered here to receive finalist staus. Actually, this month 22,803 images are NOT winning images. Many may be awesome shots but they aren't winning images and that's fine with me. I entered shots I liked really well that didn't place, but for my shots that didn't make it I don't see it as a conspiracy.
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Marie Fields |
I don't see it as a "conspiracy" either, Sharon. I'm just asking the question: Why is the number of finalists going down when the number of entries going up? It is now down to 2% of total entries being named as finalists when it used to run closer to 5%... To some of us who watch the contest on a daily basis and work hard to improve our work and submit our best and see So many others' incredible images passed over month by month while the number of awards is decreasing... it just seems a little like an insult and it's very discouraging. Hard to believe that out of those 22,800 photos there weren't a few hundred more that were worthy. The silver badges don't cost anything for bp to award and they serve as such a source of encouragement to all of us. I'm simply asking why the numbers are dwindling? Have the standards gone up that much or are we all just regressing as far as skills and creativity???? ...just wondering....
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Steven Gunnerson |
I think it sure would be nice if we had a better explaination of the how the judging works specifically, besides the one Jim gave back in 2004 & Heather gave in the beginning of this thread. The fact remains that a significant number of "Finalist" quality photographs are being eliminated some months and people want to understand why. It is very discouraging to invest so much time in effort into a contest that appears to fluctuate dramaticly for no appearent reason.
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Sharon Day |
I don't know what to tell you, Marie. I'm no different than anyone else entering the contest. I give it my best shot (pardon the pun) each month too, and when my favorite images are skipped over I feel the same disappointment as anyone else. Sometimes the ones I work hardest to create and have the most hopes in are the ones left out. Sure, they could award a few more images with medals and maybe it wouldn't cost them anything, but where do they draw the line? Even if they awarded 5% of the entries with finalist status, what about the awesome shots that were left out then? There's ALWAYS going to be nice images left out. I don't know about anyone else but I seriously don't want my images selected just because there's a quota to fill. Hope that doesn't bite me in the rear LOL.
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Diane Dupuis |
I don't understand why the number of entries keeps increasing and the number of finalists keeps decreasing. I do not agree that there were not at least 500 more entries that were at least worthy of a finalist badge. There were probably a few thousand more that were worthy. I don't think all 22,200 come close but I also don't think 497 is a fair representation of the best work of last month. Getting a finalist in the top 5% out of 23,000 does not water it down for me.
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Sharon Day |
Well, I don't like to rock the boat :o)! We have a nice free contest to enter, free galleries if we want them, and I don't see that BP owes anyone an explanation detailing how they run the site. I'm sure other contest sites don't explain every little thing just to keep everyone happy. Am I wrong about that? What's even funnier is from what I've heard there's even an owner of one of the other contest sites that enters photos here and if I'm not mistaken he wins occasionally. How's that for fair?
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Terry R. Hatfield |
I Really Dont Think The Members Can Answer This Question Marie,Of Course Everyone Might Have An Opinion Why Such The Low #'s But Most Is Speculation. Jim Or Some Of The BP Staff Would Have A Better Answer For You...
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Marie Fields |
I don't think there is any thing wrong with asking about the judging process. If paying a membership fee or a contest fee would alleviate the burden on the judges and result in more consistency in the process perhaps that's what we should have... Terry, I have had responses from Heather and Jim in different discussion threads so I know that they follow them... I suppose the answer is the same as the one above from Heather... "they don't keep track of the numbers..." I'm just voicing my opinion that maybe it would be better if they did... I thought that was what these forums were for.? (thanks for responding :)
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Peter Hundley |
Wow. What an interesting (and long) discussion. Even though I'm a newbie here, I'll add my 2 cents (or maybe 4)..... First: I think that the judges should allocate finalists based simply on the quality of the photos. Reward the "Better" photos, ya know? If that means 0.01%, so be it. Or 50%, for that matter. Why would anyone promote a quota system?? That's just warped. Meanwhile, I think the number of images submitted to the contest is way past OVERWHELMING. I can't even imagine sorting through 22,000 plus images, trying to pick the top 500 (or the top 1,000, to make some people happy). Let's presume the judges work full time (8 hrs per day, 5 days per week), and do nothing except review entries (which I doubt). 22,000 entries works out to evaluating a photo about every 20 seconds all day, every day, all week, all month...... And that doesn't even include any time to pick the winners!!! Perhaps some system to limit the entries would make sense?? Freebie folks (like me) would only get a few entries (but a several, please), while paying members might get more?? Some sanity needs to be imposed. Perhaps forcing participants to "cull thier herd" would make some sense??
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Terry R. Hatfield |
I Interpreted Your Post As A Question Rather Than A Vent Marie, (Since It Had Question Marks Within It) Sorry For The Confusion...
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Steven Gunnerson |
Yep, free contests and free galleries are great, but whats wrong wanting to know how things work?... especially if things aren't making much sence? Maybe BP doesn't owe us anything, but we do support them and their website, so like I said... it sure would be nice... especially when I know a lot of people are getting really frustrated. BP has been reducing the number of finalists by about 70 every month. At the rate we going, in a few years, there isn't going to be any Finalists at all!!! So either way I guess we're doomed. :o)
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Sharon Day |
"If paying a membership fee or a contest fee would alleviate the burden on the judges and result in more consistency in the process perhaps that's what we should have..." Well, that would eliminate at least one person that I know of. I use to visit DigitalPhotoContest (just to looksee) and they charged a fee. BTW, they are no longer in business.
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Margot Petrowski |
Well, I'm with Sharon....I don't want to rock the boat either. I wake up every morning and I'm excited to choose which photo to enter. It really brings a lot of joy to my life. While it might be nice to know exactly what the judges are looking for, not knowing is certainly not going to discourage me from entering. I look pretty closely at the winners each month to try and see what they are looking for. I guess I'm trying to say not to get too worked up about it.....what would we all do without BP and the friends that we've made here???
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Justin G. |
I don't see how people are complaining that the number of finalists are diminishing. Who are we to criticize this contest? I mean yes we can ask how the judge and whatnot, but to complain because Why is the number of finalists going down when the number of entries going up? It is now down to 2% of total entries being named as finalists when it used to run closer to 5%... This contest is a priveledge, not a right. The judges owe us nothing, especially considering the fact that there are soo many free galleries. And a photo doesn't get a finalist ("honorable mention") just because it meets a certain criteria, or "it's nice"...it makes finalist because it's proven itself against the others. that's why there's limited amounts of finalists. remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder so if everyone thought all the good images should have finalists attached to them, then every photo would have finalists because that's why the photo is here...because somebody thought it was nice. that's the contradiction. This is just my thoughts.
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Steven Gunnerson |
"We" are the people who support Betterphoto.com Inc. by investing our money, time and effort into helping make this website a great place and hopefully a profitable business venture for Jim Moitke and company. They benefit from it and we do as well. Nothing wrong with asking questions or wanting answers.
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Sharon Day |
BTW, have the winners been announced yet? LOL
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Steven Gunnerson |
Yikes... I was trying not to think about that. Thanks Sharon! Well I think "Blue Abyss" is gonna win something.
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Sharon Day |
LOL thanks, Steven! If it doesn't then a high compliment like that is good enough for me :)!
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
The answers have already been given. Divide up the pictures, this one goes, this one dosen't. Move them to the next round, this one goes, this one dosen't. At the end you have the final group. The pictures that have the most approval points/marks, grand prize, first place winners. All others get finalist. Saying it's insulting is the whole basis for this well worn topic. It's not an insult. The picture didn't get picked. Your skin is too thin for contest. I know some pictures that don't get picked would do well if entered in some other contest. Many of the fluffy subjects that do win would not be picked at all if entered into other contest. Favorite songs don't always win awards. Best sellers aren't always a good song. Apply that to movies, mvp's, anything you can think of.
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Marie Fields |
No... I'm not too thin-skinned for the contest, Gregory! I'm not even referring to my own images. I have been fortunate enough to recieve some finalists (at least one) every month that I have been a member at bp (just over 2 years now). I am quite content with the success that I have had here and I enjoy this site a great deal. It's also one of the few photography contests that allows scanned images and I greatly appreciate that aspect! My questioning comes from concern for those that I read comments from who are getting very discouraged even though their work is excellent....
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Nobu Nagase |
One thing you will have to remember is that Betterphoto.com is a business, not a photo club, a college classroom, nor a charity organization. A business must make profit to survive. It has to have a business plan to execute to survive in this competitive business world. Judging the contest entries is only a part of their business plan. But they will have to satisfy their customers (in this case, members) who support the business. There are different levels of customers. Each level of customer supports the company in different ways. The class participants, deluxe web site subscribers, premium gallery subscribers, free gallery subscribers, and the advertisers; each group supports the business in different levels. You also have to know that some customers are more important to the business than others. (For example, the company I used to work for had the customer level called “gold club”. And so does Hertz Rental Car. Gold members are more important to companies like these.) Do companies listen to their customers? Yes, they do. But they will not change their plan and policies only because their customers are not happy with some part of the company’s policy. They will change their plan and policies when and only when the changes have sufficient reason(s) to affect the company’s performance (profit, increase in market share, stability, and so on). Voicing your opinions is a good thing to the business. It can be used by the business as a tool to look at and evaluate the direction the business may pursue in the future. But it is only a small part of the whole picture. And know that generally most of customer’s opinions and dissatisfactions are ignored and go unheard… But don’t let it discourage you to voice your opinion…
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Kaye Burazin |
I agree that for a company to stay successful, it must listen to the people who support it and their sponsers or else in the long run it will no longer succeed. To say that a company does not owe it's customers a explaination when a policy has been changed is a sure proof recipe for failure. When people are disgrumbled they WILL go elsewhere. Yes, BP is a business whose monies come from many sources,one of those sources is the people who are enticed by the contest to get some acclaim for one's photographic efforts and then purchase a gallery to display their work. I found this site by doing a search under PHOTO CONTESTS as I'm sure many others had done. To downsize that aspect of this site will certainly discourage many from pursuing other aspects that the site has to offer such as their online courses. IMHO
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Better for those running the company to run a contest in a true way a contest is expected to be run, they pick what they thought was the best at the time. Not with I wouldn't pick this one, but since I have to move 5% of the total to the final round, I'll put a finalist tag on this one.
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