 Andrew Laverghetta |
medium format for photo classes Hi! I'm looking into a medium format camera to use for my photo classes. I already have a 35mm that I've been using for my first b&w class and I'll probably use it for most of my next during the spring semester coming up. Though, in the classes after that, most people use medium format to my knowledge. Plus I want to be able to use it for more than just the class. Of course, the Seagulls are cheap and I've read that the lenses may be good or bad. My thing is that I want to be able to see exactly what's going through the lens or at least "94%" of it. So, an SLR. My thing is that I'm a flute player as well in college and I recently bought a new flute where I should be able to sell my old one and get about $1500 for it. I'm looking at the Mamiya 645 Pro TL. The one I'm looking at is just over $800 without a lens and doesn't have a prism viewfinder but the waist level viewfinder. Since it's under $1000 I was hoping that I would have some money left over for a lens at least. I'm looking at Mamiya's Normal 80mm f/2.8 N Manual Focus Lens for 645 (from bhphoto's website). It's only $299. I had also seen some longer lenses for portraiture and stuff for around $500 or so. Do you think it'd be better to get a prism finder instead of the longer lens? Do you have any better ideas for what I might get? Again, I don't want a TLR and I've heard a lot about Mamiya's optics. What does the "N" in that lens' name mean? One last thing, do you pronounce Mamiya as "Mah mee yah" or "Mah mih yah"? Haha, just wondering. Thanks!
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Andrew Laverghetta |
Oh, I just noticed, how does light metering work with these? Is there no meter in the camera itself? I'd have to get the prism finder anyway to have in camera metering?
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Mark Feldstein |
In some ways, choosing a camera is like deciding which car to buy after considering your budget and personal preference. Once you decide on a couple of makes and models, see if you can rent them to take them for a test drive and see how they really handle under actual use. The Mamiya M645 is a nice piece of equipment, but I think you can do better both in terms of value AND accessories that provide versatility. If you find yourself a good clean used Hasselblad 500 CM or even a 503CX with an acute matte focusing screen (that delivers nearly a 100% viewing area) an 80mm Planar 2.8 CF; an A-12 or A-24 12 or 24 exposure (6x6) back and waist level finder, you'll probably spend about the same or just a bit more than you would for that 645 you mentioned. Check out the prices at KEH.com. The bargain-grade equip they offer is usually in very good shape and their warranties and return policies are excellent. I wouldn't recommend e-bay for this deal unless you really know what you're looking for and what to look for. A rep at KEH will work with you by phone to help find what you need within your budget. If you want to know who I'd recommend there, just drop me an e-mail. And, you can probably use a waist level pop-up finder which will initially save you a fair amount of dough. Also, take a look at the January issue of Shutterbug. There's a very good article on upgrading to MF equipment, what's available these days and best values, including Hasselblad. Have you considered the RZ67 yet? My own preference is Hasselblad for lots of reasons including how it handles, versatility I mentioned, interchangability of accessories including mags, sharpness of lenses and turn around time for maintenance whenever I send something in (which is rare and usually only for cleaning, lube and adjusting back to specs. (Usually about once a year for a bodies and lenses that see pretty heavy use.)en So, another thing to consider is whether Mamiya is going to continue to support their MF film equipment like the 645. I honestly don't know, but I know Hasselblad's repair facility in Fairfield NJ is going to be around for quite awhile ...with the parts to back it up. Metering can be done with a prism meter attached to the camera body or with a hand held meter of one kind or another. My own preference is a Gossen Luna Pro most of the time that's built like a hockey puck and incredible accurate in both incident or reflected mode. There are lots of used meters available and while others may disagree, I find a handheld meter more accurate than a MF prism meter. And, when you become a rich and famous photographer, you can get a digital back to work on your blad in place of film mags. ;>) without buying a new body. Like I said, get the glass, forget the prism for now. Whether you can use it in your class is a question for your instructor(s). It's usually an issue of whether the instructor or someone at the school processes the student film and whether they're geared for 120 or 220 film. Ask them. Sounds like it's ok for the advanced class. For portraits, instead of buying an 80mm you might find more use from the 100mm f3.5, although I prefer a 150mm Sonnar CF T / f4.0 for portraiture. Oh, BTW, you'll find some posts on MF including Hasselblads here under equipment. You should take a look at those too. Any other questions, feel free to ask away. Good luck in your studies and meanwhile, take it light Andrew. ;>)
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Andrew Laverghetta |
Hmm, that looks pretty good. I see a few 500C/M's used for under $300. Of course, that's without lens and I guess it's without a back as well? Hmm, it says sorry, those are 500C's. The C/M's are a little more. I'm looking at one that's used and says "Camera Body - Chrome" I assume that this has a waist-level viewfinder beacuse there's on that says "Camera Body Only (Chrome) - WITHOUT Waist-Level Viewfinder. It appears to be a little bit less. Hmm, complicated, how they word it. It looks like it might be a good deal as well. It would be nice to be able to switch between 6x6 and 645. I like square but It'd also be nice to have the more common format for certain things. I'll have to think of more to say...It's nearly 1 AM...
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Andrew Laverghetta |
ok, so I'm being an insomniac tonight. B&H...
I'll probably have to use with an 80mm lens most of the time since I wouldn't be using it for just portraits. Yeah, I'd love to have a digital back with a firewire connected to a computer! lol for some of that maxim work that I've just been contacted about lol! (yeah right). Our instructor already said to some students that they could use medium format for out fundamentals of photo class. I would assume they would have to have shot enough rolls of 35mm first but she definitly is all for it. If I got one soon, I could use it for part of my black and white next semester as well. Thanks for the help! If you've got any more info that you don't want to write in here for any reason, you can contact me through my gallery.
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Kerry L. Walker |
Not to go against what Mark said because Hassie is a great piece of equipment but you might want to also check out the Pentax line also. You can get a Pentax 645N with back and lens for $1199.00 at B&H (used - condition 9). No, it is not as versatile as the Hassie line but the lenses are excellent and you will get more bang for your buck. I love mine.
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Kerry L. Walker |
Sorry, that was $1099.00, not 1199.00.
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Andrew Laverghetta |
Thanks for the other suggestion, I'll check that out too! It's exciting because if I carry around my 35mm film camera now, everybody has one like that, but I'll look like a real photographer with one of these haha. Hey, with the 645, is it possible to rotate the back or something to change the horizontal/vertical orientation? Thanks!
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Justin G. |
I personally recommend the Mamiya RB67. I got mine, 120 back, chimney viewfinder, and a 90mm f/3.8 for $438. Good deal I found but still, they're out there. For metering you need to get a handheld meter. I know Mamiya makes a metering prism for the RB67 but they run like $1000-$1500 I think. Quite expensive when you can get a NICE handheld for $200-$300. Look into those. You can find a really nice 180mm portrait lens for $300-$500 on ebay and some used retailers. Don't pass up a chance on a good ol RB.
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Justin G. |
And also the 67 format is about 2x as large as the 645 totalling about 4.2x (I think?) larger than the 35mm.
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Mark Feldstein |
Morning Andrew: If you look at the KEH.com site, if a Hassie body comes with a waist level finder, it'll say so. Most of them there don't, and if not, you might calculate your price with a stove-pipe (chimmney) finder. You can get a variety of backs to suit your needs, including an older, 16S, superslide back that produces 16 35mm square shots on a roll of 120. Kinda nice. And I agree with Kerry too, in that the Pentax is a great camera too, but for me, since I like to be able to work freehand without a tripod a lot of the time, it's a bit bulky for me to work at slower shutter speeds as is the RZ, but again, it's personal preference. Buying used equipment from B&H is ok, but I think their prices are a bit on the high end for what you're getting compared to say KEH. If you can go to B&H and actually stand across the counter from the sales guy, you also stand a better chance to make a better deal. I also had a hassle with them a few years ago on getting a Norman pack repaired that was under their tail light guarantee. BTW, the rep I deal with at KEH is Jeannie, who is just great to work with, especially on MF equip. because she also shoots with MF. (I won't say which Oh, and the chrome body has chrome trim, whereas the black bodies (that I prefer) are mostly black which to me is a bit less obtrusive and I think looks cooler than chrome. Image isn't everything of course but it helps. LOL !!! Well, I owe, I owe, so off to shoot I go. Take it easy.
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Kerry L. Walker |
I think Mark is a little confused on which Pentax I was recommending. The 645 is easy to use hand held and is lighter than the Hassie. You don't need to rotate the back; just rotate the camera like you would a 35mm. It only weighs about 3 lbs. It has a built-in meter and a built-in spotmeter. I would suggest you get your hands on all of the models we are talking about and see which feels best to you. After all, the feel maters a lot. Also, check out the Bronica. It's no slouch either.
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Mark Feldstein |
Yeah, Kerry you're right. I got it very confused with the big papa bear Pentax. I stand (or sit) corrected.
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Andrew Laverghetta |
Here's a quick question to add to the rest. I would love to get a 6x7 camera since it's the same ratio as the major print sizes. The thing that might keep me from that is that I had a friend of my grandparents give me his old 6x6 enlarger. It'd be great to be able to print some of my own black and white work at my place but since the enlarger is 6x6, it obviously won't make use of the extra negative space. My other option is 645 since that's the same ratio, but it's less negative space. Is this like the same as a switch from a 6 to and 8 megapixel DSLR in terms of image sharpness and noise, or is there a noticible difference before, hmm, around 20x30? The huge negative would be great but if the negatives from 645 would be close enough to the same quality, I might go with that. Plus, more negs per roll. Thanks! -Andrew
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Bret Tate |
I guess I'll add a little info to this thread. Mark, Kerry, & Justin always give a lot of good info, so I'll try to be brief. My recommendation would be to use KEH, get a hand held meter, and a Mamiya RB67. My reasoning for the RB67 is this - They are low in price, Mamiya offers great optics, and you can use mutiple backs that offer different film formats. As an example, you can get a 6x7 back and a 645 back. With the two backs if you had a 127mm lens, it would act as "normal" for 6x7 and telephot for 645. A 90mm lens would be "normal" for the 645 and wide angle for the 6x7. I think that this package gives the most "bang for the buck". Just my opinion.
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Kerry L. Walker |
Can't argue with Bret for the most part. Mamiya is a fine camera (I used to shoot with a C-33) and the option of two different sizes of negatives is a plus. However, it really depends how you will use the camera and how much weight you are willing to carry around. You really should get your hands on a few different MF cameras and see which you like best. As far as the size of the negative, I doubt you will notice much difference at 20x30. One thing you need to realize is that none will correspond to the standard sizes of prints as they run mostly along the lines of a 4:5 ratio (4x5, 8x10, 16x20 with 11x14 only slightly off from that). I would make my choice after handling the different cameras and seeing which you like best.
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Justin G. |
I'll have to agree and piggyback on Bret. With the RB you can go 645 OR 67. But also the disadvantage is that it's a heavy heavy camera and I'm only gone out to the "field" once with. It's a tank, and your shoulder will probably hate you for it. I love it personally and I couldn't recommend it more, not to downplay anyone else's but my RB is my baby now and I'm sure it would be yours too when you see the quality. But then again everyone else's would probably do you quite well also. Best thing is to go to the new/used camera store and hold them and play with them. What type of work do you think you'll be "specializing" in with this purchase? I want to do studio work with mine so the size and weight is nothing to me, b/c I'm not in the field or carrying it through the mountains. It stays on the tripod and never leaves so it's good for me. A lot of it depends on what you want to shoot.
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Kerry L. Walker |
I am too old and weak to shoot weddings with an RB. For the studio, it would be great. If you don't mind the weight, it would be great to shoot scenics too. Just treat it like a smaller view camera.
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Justin G. |
yeah I'd probably only shoot weddings with it if there was a balcony and I wanted a few wide shots in between all the others. or also if I had an assistant to setup for a couple formals with family but that probably doesn't happen much.
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Bret Tate |
I agree that the weight factor of the RB67 is a consideration. I shot weddings for many years with the RB67 and a Sunpak 622 flash - handheld. It is definitely a workout. I now use a Mamiya 645AFD. Much easier to lug around, but I miss some of the RB features. One other thing to be mentioned - the RB67 is lens shutter so you can sync flash at all shutter speeds.
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Justin G. |
which is awesome. I shoot my studio stuff at 1/250 or 1/400 for sharpness. but the only drawback to a lens shutter is it's lack of speed. max speed is 1/400.
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Andrew Laverghetta |
I'm 21 right now so the weight wouldn't bother me. As long as I had a decent pack to carry it in. I think I also saw an RZ67. What difference is this from the RB? Can you still use both 645 and 67 backs? Is that all it takes to change between formats? Can you use a 220 back from 120 as well? Thanks again!
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Justin G. |
I'm not exact sure of the difference but I believe it's metering. The RB doesn't meter, unless you buy a pricey metered prism. But get yourself a good incident meter, it's probably better. Anyways on both the RB & RZ you can get 120 or 220 backs in 645 and 67. You can also get polaroid backs, which I'm really trying to steal a deal on ebay right now for one. They can be kinda pricey but basicall you put it on, and it gives you an instant feedback with polaroid film. Then you take it off, slap on yoru other back and you're good to go. This is great for studio because you can check your lights before you fire. i'm really not sure of the difference though, but rz stuff is usually more expensive which leads me to believe it's superior in some way IDK. but the RB is a tank itself so you'd be good with it, especially as a first MF. I'm 21 also Andrew, and it gets heavy. not saying it is, but it gets heavy. i'd say its from 5-9 lbs. (not good with guessing weight here). but also I had a shoulder pack. if you got yourself a nice supported backpack you should be alright. but andrew if you're serious about your work, get a 67. to the others: not saying a 645 doesn't perform, i'm just saying that if he can handle a little extra weight and less versatility, it's worth it, for double the negative and quadruple from 35. go for it dude, i've had a blast since i've got mine.
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Bret Tate |
The RZ is a new version made to replace the RB. The RB is all manual and the RZ has electronic functions, including metering. The RZ is still manual focus and is bigger & heavier than the RB. I think you can use RB lenses on the RZ but not the other way around. Besides the 6x7, 645, and polaroid backs, there are 6x6, a "72" (which is a bigger neg than 6x7),long roll, and I believe 35mm backs available for the RB also. One luxury investment I would make with the RB is a Beattie focusing screen. The RB screen is fairly dim and the Beattie screen helps out a lot. Especially for my old eyes. Justin:
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Justin G. |
Yeah most are goign for around $100. just trying to be cheap and find one for like $40 or $50 considering I just dumped $2,000 into lights, I need to slow down, but the polaroid would actually help me save money. I found one for like $50 but at the current paycheck don't want to pay it up, and it's hard finding this deal on a good paycheck, lol. Thanks for the help though.
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Bret Tate |
I paid $120.00 for a polaroid back 8-10 years ago and I thought they should be much less now. They are extremely helpful when setting lighting and in getting exactly the exposure and balance you want in multiple exposures.
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Tom Walker |
I shoot weddings with a MAY-MEE-AH 645 and I love it, with the PD prism finder it's like using a my Nikon FM. By the way the N means New style, basically a cosmtetic change, interchangeable with the older C type which stood for Coated
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