 Roy Blinston |
Legality I have been attending some Photo Classes where the tutor/organiser hires a model and all students take various photos for training and experience. My tutor says we cannot use any of the pics, nor put them in our portfolios, or display them in any shape or form (except private use only).... she says this includes the web and our personal portfolios. Is she being "over protective"? She will also not give us any contact details of the models so we can ask them directly. I have always believed that with or without a model release there is nothing to stop me including the pics in my portfolio (web or otherwise) providing the pics are not for sale. Does anyone have any advice on this? From a Student perspective it seems pointless in attending the classes because the pics are unuseable.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Jon Close |
I'm not a lawyer, but... The intention is to provide a classroom opportunity for education/training/experience. It is not intended to fill you portfolio or personal gallery. The instructor has probably contracted the models on that basis, with the assurance/promise that their images will not appear on the web or otherwise be distributed or used in any way outside this instructional setting. I think as a student/participant in this class that you are bound by these restrictions, and I think that's fair. Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Justin G. |
But Jon since he isn't publicly displaying anything I think portfolio work should be allowed. That's just my opinion though. Technically whenever you publish an image, even just an internet gallery, you need a model release. But Roy here's the thing to remember, she's not your teacher forever and they ARE your pictures since YOU took them and who says she's going to be seeing your portfolio when class is done?
|
|
|
|
||
- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
That's an easy way for any Joe Rockhead to get a woman to pose, hoping for nudes or something else down the line. That and the model may not be hired but volunteering, she would get paid if it were real modeling. So if she's not getting paid or if you're not actually working as a real photographer, they want restrictions for monetary reasons and personal. Looks like a disclaimer that if done before you started taking pictures, you'd be bound to. Cause if you didn't agree, then don't take the pictures and get a refund for the classes.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Roy Blinston |
The model was paid by the tutor (by the hour) and we Students paid the Tutor to attend the Classes. I can understand it if the model was doing it for nothing - which happens on occasions. In that case we ask the model directly (if I remember to get their contact details before the event finishes). Also, the Tutor will not give us any contact details of the models so we can call them directly. Unless I ask them for phone numbers or such on the day I am stuffed. The Tutor has since asked all Stduents for all images to be copied to a CD so she can give them the models (as a bonus). I have refused unless the model gives me permission to include the pics in my portfolio. Is this unreasonable? One final note... the Tutor did ask us to sign something on the first class.... but I never got a "copy" and have no way of knowing what I signed. Surely this is not a legal contract if I was not given a copy of my own (or any time to assess the terms). It was thrust upon us in the first few minutes and most signed it quickly so they could get on with taking the pics.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Roy Blinston |
PS: I don't believe anybody can stop me "showing" the pics (face to face).... but I would like to include the pics in my portoflio on the Internet.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Justin G. |
The pictures aren't the teachers to give to the model. They are YOUR pics. YOU have the rights to them. YOU can display them in your portfolio as much as you want. And why should the model get the pics if you can't even show them in your physical portfolio face to face? Good call on refusing them.
|
|
|
|
||
|
- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
not unreasonable. If the tutor promised something to the model, that dosen't automatically include all parties afterwards without including them in on the agreement somehow. Sounds more like a fear of having strangers with her picture. Portfolio use isn't a really a legal problem, but if somebody actually asked not to be included, I wouldn't only because of a respect thing. Not different than if somebody dosen't want their picture taken, even for a big news event, I would try to look for something else. Even though there's nothing that says you can't take somebody's picture. I say keep your pictures, and find out what you signed.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Melissa L. Zavadil |
1. You have a legal right to the contract inwhich you signed. 2. It all depends on what you signed and agreed to. (Not reading a contract does not make a contract null and void, neither does not understanding what you signed--stupidity of the law does not hold up in court. ) 3. Ask for a copy of what you signed. 4. Read it very close. 5. Determine what you are NOW legally bound to based on the contract inwhich you signed. 6. If you breach the contract (showing work in a portfolio) you can be sued, EXPECIALLY if this is spelled out in the contract and you breached your commitment. End of story.
|
|
|
|
||
|
- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
To be continued...
|
|
|
|
||
|
Roy Blinston |
Surely a Contract (for it to be legal) one must be issued with a "copy" and signed by both parties.... not just one copy that is whisked away immediately afterwards. For instance.... some months ago I had to go to Court over a Government matter. The Court sent me one page (but 2 identical copies ot it). When some issues were raised in the Courtroom my solicitor asked them what they were talking about. It appears they should have sent me a 2 page document (not a one page document of 2 copies). The case was thrown out of court immediately after this.
|
|
|
|
||
|
- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
You don't even know what you signed could be considered to meant as a contract, let alone actually be one. Found out what you signed. To be continued...
|
|
|
|
||
|
Roy Blinston |
I did read the contract, though very quickly, whilst the lecture was going on. I was also prompted for its return after only 2 minutes - which I signed and returned. I cannot remember word for word what it said but it had something to do with copyright and useage. I got the general drift of it, that's all. But surely they should supply a copy, and surely this should be supplied "before" the event takes place, so one has time to assess the merits (or de-merits) of the contract? I have since asked the Tutor for a copy... and am waitng on a reply. To be continued.....
|
|
|
|
||
|
Melissa L. Zavadil |
Alright, a party that chooses not to read a contract and understand its verbage is still bound to the terms that were agreed upon in the contract. I believe that the contract that you signed was a one page document therefore the 'essential key terms' in the contract were there and listed so there was a 'Meeting of the Minds' and it will or would not be thrown out of courts based on this issue. The other case that you stated most likely was thrown out based on the fact that the 'essential key terms of the contract were not given.' This can be on a multipage document where you can not have access to the terms necisary to understand the contract. This is only one of the many reasons why the contract was/or could have been thrown out. Discuss this issue with your attorny to understand the reason, you might be enlightened. You do not have to have a piece of paper for a contract to be valid. You just have to have an agreement. So therefore you do not have to have a copy of the agreement for it to be concidered a valid agreement. And it does not have to be signed by 'both' parties. There are certain restrictions where the courts do require it to be in writing but this does not fit them. You are bound by the terms inwhich you signed. Unless both parties agree to amend the contract on a one term basis. Get the contract and review it. Then discuss the terms with your instructor and see if there is a reasonable way you can amend the contract.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Roy Blinston |
Who is to say it was "my signature" on the contract. Nobody witnessed it. I could have written Stefan Edberg or Mary Queen of Scots in "scrawl". My signature is indistinguishable anyway. Good points all round from all responders to my problem. Thanks for the advice and comments from all concerned. I will wait for my copy of the Contract so I can assess it.
|
|
|
|
||
|
John G. Clifford Jr |
Well, Roy, if you signed the contract without reading it, then it's your problem and not the instructor's. Dissembling about your signature when the instructor and the rest of the class (and everyone who has been following this thread) knows that you have admitted to signing it is distastefully disingenious. I'm saying this because I think the tendency for all of us to want to break an agreement that we don't like, rather than honoring the terms of agreements we make, is a bad thing for each of us and for all of us. Honor is a gift a man gives to himself. From what I've read it sounds like the instructor had everyone sign a document that transfers all work done during the instruction with models she hired to be her property (and under her copyright). Perfectly legal, even if not perfectly likable. The time to have challenged this would have been before the contract/agreement was signed. Or, you could have made a notation on the document changing some of the terms, and signed it with those provisions. Re 'private use', as long as your portfolio is not sold or given to others (as opposed to lent), or publicly displayed, I don't see any restrictions on your including these photographs in it. So, unless you specifically have a need to put these documents out for public display or sale, I don't see a problem. The instructor has evidently given you the ability to use these images for 'private use' and whether they're in a frame on your piano or in a sleeve in a portfolio book, what's the diff?
|
|
|
|
||
|
Roy Blinston |
I know I am in the wrong legally .... all I ask is opinions on the procedure of the way the contract was handled (ie: no time to assess contents, no copy given, the way the contract was thrust upon us with no prior warnings, and whilst the lecture was in progress and trying to listen at the same time). I wasn't looking for a sermon and to be preached to about honesty etc etc.
|
|
|
|
||
|
- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Opinions are if you were serious and not joking about trying to deny it's your signature, no way that would work. Being rushed to sign it, if it's a contract you have to say hold up, let me read it. It would be different if something were used to hold over your head as a penalty or something that wasn't true. But not everybody sign this, now pass it up. But yet opinions are still being based without knowing what it was you signed. Looking on the bright side, my feeling I'm getting is that this class isn't doing something that you couldn't do again on your own. Maybe this has something to do with the tutor is having everybody do pictures that are already in her portfolio. And she dosen't want identicals out there. Or the model is in her portfolio. Stay tuned for clips of our next episode.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Sharon Day |
Interesting Q&A topic! I've learned a few things over the years, not many but a few. One thing I've learned is I thoroughly read everything "thrust" in my face for a signature and I don't care how long anyone waits while I read it. I then sign with a date and ask for a copy if it suits me to sign.
|
|
|
|
||
|
John G. Clifford Jr |
Didn't mean to preach... but this is a sore spot with me because I've been burnt several times by people who signed agreements and then tried to wiggle out of them. That is a gripe with me. I've also been rushed into signing something before, and I've learned (as other posters have) not to sign ANYTHING until I read it and understand it.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Roy Blinston |
Fair comment from John C. I too have a mini gripe with these sort of people - but I always give them plenty of time to read it and state beforehand (on many occasions) what it is all about. I feel somewhat cheated into signing at very short notice. My fault I know as I should have read it thoroughly first, but then I would be missing out on the class and all the fun (both models were nude and things were getting frantic). Gregory L hit a few "truisms" with his comments about why not do it on my own (forget the class). This has already gone through my head more than once. (And yes I was only joking about Stefan Edberg, just to emphasise the point). Your other comment that maybe the Tutor doesn't want similar pictures out and about in my town, because they may already be in the Tutor portfolio (good point, which is ringing some bells maybe). I will re-cap again on this forum when I get a "copy" of whatever it was I signed. Thanks everybody. I know I have been a bit of an idiot singing something I didn't fully read, but feel I was ushered into it. I am now wondering "why".
|
|
|
|
||
|
Rom A.G. |
"The Tutor has since asked all Stduents for all images to be copied to a CD so she can give them the models (as a bonus). I have refused unless the model gives me permission to include the pics in my portfolio. Is this unreasonable?" this makes no sense.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Jon Close |
I makes sense to me. The models get the images as compensation for posing. The student gets exactly what they paid the instructor for - an education and practice/experience to be applied in the future.
|
|
|
|
||
|
- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
-"(both models were nude and things were getting frantic)."- Now you have the reason why she wants all of them back. Fear of being cut and pasted into another image. Told you taking a class like that is an easy way for any clown to try to get pictures of nude women.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Rom A.G. |
what if this was a drawing or painting class? would the teacher or the model take away everyone's paintings? thats nonesense! If it was me, I wouldnt give anything to anyone because: A) as time goes by I would want to look back my work as a student B) if the model doesnt like her boobies shown to everyone then dont model.
|
|
|
|
||
|
- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
drawings and paintings don't have the same fear of photoshopping someone into another picture, if that is what they were worried about in the first place.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Roy Blinston |
The pics are not "naughty pics" (they are both art models - man and a woman). The class was split into 2 groups, and we alternated between the two. Neither am I a clown (this is art). I offered to show the pics to the Tutor and the Models in question beforehand (for approval), but this seems to make no difference to the attitude. Me thinks the Tutor is just being over cautious (fear of being sued or similar). The male model didn't have any problems with my requests and was very happy with his pics.
|
|
|
|
||
|
- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Don't have to explain anything to anybody here. But that may be why they tell everybody they can't use their OWN pictures for their OWN portfolio. A cover all.
|
|
|
|
||
|
Roy Blinston |
I have already been given the OK from the male model. The girl model has just sent me an email requesting to view the pics first (fair enough). I have sent some copies to her and am waiting on her reply. (To be continued...) I can't believe all this ka-fuffle over a few art pics. One would think I was photographing someone as famous as Sharon Stone and making millions from the copyright. It's only an art class. Gee whiz!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
||
|
Melissa L. Zavadil |
Makes perfectly good sense to me. Anytime you have a nude where there could be deflamitory issues involved the instructor BETTER cover her butt! And I would doublely make sure you follow that contract to the tee!!! There could be massive issues if you do not! A judge would simply laugh at you for trying to argue you did not sign that doc. Judges don't put up with that nonsence and you could get fined for lying in a court of law. I would check that contract to see if you owe that model photos before you start stating that you won't give them. A contract is a contract and if you choose not to obide by it you breech that contract and there are high penalties in doing so. Being a jerk is only going to make you look bad in court, in frount of the judge and your fellow peer photograpehrs. Judges simply do not tolerate that type of behavior. You chose not to take the time and you chose not to read the contract, both of which are no reasons to not follow through with your agreed upon commitment. You brought up one reason why the contract could be withdrew but it will not hold up in your case. Duress, if a signee is forced to sign under physical, social or other major types of duress then the contract will not hold up. Making you listen to a lecture is far far from duress.
|
|
|
|
||
|
- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Hey, it's a woman. This really ought to be no surprise when photographing one
|
|
|
|
||
|
Rom A.G. |
This reminds of what happened to Madonna. When she was 19 she modeled nude for someone. Then when she became a celeb, the photog sold the pics to Playboy, which published them in 1985. The model might become famous some day, or marry a future presidential candidate(or run for prez herself).
|
|
|
|
||
|
John G. Clifford Jr |
Well, Madonna's career certainly wasn't hurt. After all, the biggest exploiter of Madonna was... Madonna. Re having pictures come back to haunt you... the way to handle that is to not let pictures (or videotapes... right, Tommy and Pamela?) be taken that could possibly come back to haunt you.
|
|
|
|
||
|
This old forum is now archived. Use improved Forum here
Report this Thread |
||