 Stephanie Sherwood |
Bounce Lighting Is there sort of a rule of thumb when it comes to bounce lighting. Lately I have been having alot of problems trying to get correct lighting pr lense I use. When shooting a wedding I will use either my d70 or n80 with my sb-800 on a bracket, and I duno I am having an awful difficult time getting it correctly. It is driving me insane, can some one help me or point me in the right direction to get soemthing to read or things to try?
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Michael H. Cothran |
I'd be glad to offer some guidance. If you could be more precise than "trying to get the correct lighting" or "getting it correctly" perhaps we could come up with a solution. A specific picture that you could post would also help. Michael H. Cothran www.mhcphoto.net
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Stephanie Sherwood |
I was using a 28 mm wide angle lense I think. See how it is just boring and dull and not exciting. How the background is so dark , not that I dont expect that but it just doesnt look right good. a row and roll or photos came out like this very boring very lifeless.
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Kerry L. Walker |
Wre you bouncing this off the ceiling? If so, how high was the ceiling?
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Stephanie Sherwood |
and basically I find myself not knowing what I thought I knew about lighting. I find myself having to fix photos more often with this last wedding. I havent had such a problem. But I am also new to bounce flash, I just did a wedding previuos to this and it was wonderful and I did use my flash but the surroundings itself were in very brightly lit rooms. Ahhh I feel like I am starting from gound one.
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Stephanie Sherwood |
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Kerry L. Walker |
It looks to me like the ceiling was a dark color. If so, it probably was absorbing almost all of the light and reflecting little.
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Stephanie Sherwood |
it was a very poorly lit room, the celings were white. Is there a better way to shoot or better flash to use under situtations like this. Also while I have you, ha ha, When I would point the flash directly into the croudn or where ever I was shooting,the photo would be so dark , (i forget at what aperture I was shooting with probably somewhere between 4-7ish)
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Kerry L. Walker |
The lighting in the room is of little consequence since you are relying on the flash to illuminate the subject. It doesn't seem to me that you were getting ANY flash. Are you sure the flash is syncing properly with your camera? One thing I would suggest is to purchase a mini softbox and use it instead of bouncing the flash off the ceiling. The one thing I don't like about bouncing the flash off the ceiling is that you can get shadows under the eyes. I really don't know what to tell you other than it doesn't seem to me that you're getting any results from your flash. Perhaps Michael can help.
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Stephanie Sherwood |
I guess it is syncing properly, how can I check that. Bounce flash has been a little hard for me to control becuase of shadows and such. how much does a mini soft box cost? Does it attache to the flash , the camera? what would be a good company to go with?
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Karma Wilson |
Hey Stephanie, I've seen pros use tupperware as a flash diffuser! :-) Karma
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Kerry L. Walker |
Well, the way I would check it would be to open the back of my camera, press the shutter, and see if I could see the flash through the lens. Kinda hard to do with digital, though. I don't know how to tell you to check it with digital except to say try 2 shots, one with flash and 1 without and see if you can tell the difference. From the looks of the photos, I don't think you are getting any flash, like it is not firing. If you bounced the flash off a white ceiling, at least the ceiling should be white. It isn't. Looking at the second photo, if you were using film, I would say you were using daylight balanced film under incandescent lights. Now, about the mini softbox. They run about $20.00 - $26.00 each and attach to the flash. Check Adorama or B&H Photo. They are both good sources for camera gear.
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Stephanie Sherwood |
what is the difference between the bounce flash diffuser and a mini soft box? I typically have my flash pointed at a 45 degree angel towards the ceiling, of course changing it from left to right when need be. should I be using more or less of an angel, or does that depend on the lense, and aperture? hieght of ceiling?
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Kerry L. Walker |
They both diffuse the flash. I just prefer the softbox. If you use either one, you shouldn't need to bounce your flash. The angle you are using should be fine. You would only nee to change the angle if you were very close to the subject. Then you would raise it higher. Of course, the reverse would apply too, but if you were that far away from the subject, bouncing your flash would lose too much light.
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Christopher A. Vedros |
Stephanie - were your problems mostly with pictures on the dance floor? It looks like there was some sort of lattice work over the dance floor - this wouldn't bounce much light on your subject. That's always a risk with planning to bounce off the ceiling - you might end up with a ceiling that's not good for bouncing light.
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Mark Feldstein |
Hi Steph: Let me embellish a bit on what's already been suggested. Evidently you've got a pretty serious problem here that should be addressed in a systematic manner before you shoot your next gig. Chances are, if you're getting the same sort of results with two cameras, you may be having flash problems or just operator error. I don't know what the guide number is with the Sb800, but it's in your flash handbook. Set the flash at full power in manual mode 10 feet from a flash meter pointed at it set to ISO 100, using the incident dome. Trigger the flash and check the reading. If your guide number is say 160, you should be getting f16 or so. If not, your flash is likely the culpret. Get the flash checked operating WITH the camera bodies. It's electronics get a command from the camera telling it when to turn on and turn off. It could be the flash is turning off prematurely and that might explain why at least the photo you posted here is about 4 1/2 stops underexposed. If its light output is close to your guide number, how long is it taking to recycle and what power source are you using? If you're using standard alkaline batteries, of course as you use them, your recycle time is going to increase. Is it possible your flash isn't fully recharging between shots? Assuming the flash is working properly, you should have a separate power pack, like a Quantum Turbo battery (my preference). They only cost about $360 bucks, plus cords. Ask Mike, Karma and Kerry what they use as power sources too. I can tell you, however, that the Turbo will drive a Vivitar 285 HV at about 1 frame per second at full power, 2 frames per sec. at 1/2 power, and will deliver about 300 shots per charge at full power, running a strobe that delivers 200 watt seconds (A Quantum T-2, not the Vivitar). You don't appear to have a flash-camera synchronization problem. If it was, I think part of your frames would be completely dark or blanked. But you know, it probably wouldn't hurt to get both cameras checked by a competent repair person anyway. All of my gear rotates through the shop once a year for CLA (Clean, lube, adjustment). But as I said, if both cameras are presenting the same problems, and it's not the flash, then look to operator error. A ceiling bounce works ok if it's not much higher than 8' and painted white. Even off white will produce a color cast on your subject and cut down its reflectance. I go with Kerry's suggestion about a mini-softbox or on flash diffuser although I'm one of the folks Karma mentioned that uses a Tupperware container as a diffuser. I recommend that you get off the ceiling because an 8' bright white ceiling is ideal and not many venues are designed for photographers. Also, instead of relying on your flash for a primary light source, I suggest using it as fill for your subjects and go with ambient light readings, even if you have to go to a higher ISO, say 400. That way, the lighting will appear more natural and even throughout the shot with the subject highlighted in the foreground from the fill flash instead of like they're standing in front of a tunnel (without a train coming Beyond that Stephanie, you should run some equipment tests and keep some exposure records, i.e., what the camera told you vs. what you shot at, check those things I mentioned and above all else, practice, practice practice. Oh, and when you go to shoot a gig, as a reminder, always test your equipment before you start shooting, including flash sync, manual and automatic modes.
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Stephanie Sherwood |
THANK YOU so much for all that information. The flash is pretty new so I hope its not any mechanical problems. I will test equipmet. Usually I test for batteries and such when I check my equipment before a gig, I definatly will chck flash sync and so forth from now on. Thank you so much, I will be trying your suggestions. right now I use alkaline batteries and charge 4 hrs before hand (which is when they are fully charged) I have been looking into a battery pack becuase of recycle time. Thank you thank you so much, I will let you know how all comes out when I test my equipment.
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Mark Feldstein |
Hey Stephanie ! You may have just figured out your problem. You said "I use alkaline batteries and charge 4 hours before hand..." Nickel Cadmium (Nicad batteries) can be charged. So can lead-acid batteries. Lithium batteries are rechargeable. But alkaline batteries can't be charged or recharged any more than when you get them out of the box. In fact, as I recall, trying to put a charge on an alkaline shortens its life span or renders them unable to hold their original full charge. You may be able to cycle to full power, but if they're damaged, they may not be able to do that very long or may really slow down more quickly than if they hadn't been charged. Check your flash manual and you may want to look at the Energizer Battery web site about that issue. You may want to go to a rechargeable pack sooner than you anticipated. As I mentioned, you can't go wrong with a Quantum Turbo battery for the SB 800. But in the meantime, all the steps you're taking are in the right direction. And yeah, please let us know what you finally figure out. And...you're velcome. :>)
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Noor H. |
Hey Mark, i just have a question as am new to using my digital camera with flash. I kno wwhat a soft box is, but is the mini soft box as effecint, an dwould it light up th eback ground? what is a tupperware container and how do you use it? and for th eambient light reading, wouldnt it be hard to freeze the background . thanks Noor
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Shouldn't use bounce with auto settings if that's what you did. Usually don't fire with enough power. Better to use manual and a flash meter if you have one. Or with enough times doing it, you can get to the point where you can estimate based on the height of the ceiling and what it's made of. Taking care of a shadow in the eye sockets from bouncing is a white note card, section of ink jet paper, anything similar taped or rubber band to the flash head, with part of the paper sticking up beyond the flash. Bounces some light forward. Works just like and no money spent on domes, or other attachments.
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Stephanie Sherwood |
Mark - Ahh I do use NicAd Batteries- I just checked my batteries cause I was like wait a minute that sounds awfully familiar. I still will be doing those tests though.
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Stephanie Sherwood |
Oh, and I forget who mentioned this but yeah the ceiling above the dance floor did have lattice work, I didnt even think baout that not bouncing light! THANKS.
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Mark Feldstein |
Hi Noor and Stephanie: Is a mini as efficient as a large softbox? In terms of both light output and the quality of light, the short answer is no chiefly because of its size in relation to a larger box, it's internal lining, and the fact that the flash you use with it doesn't have the horsepower of the studio-type lighting you use in the larger boxes. IMHO depending on the flash you use with a mini, they can produce some nice softening effects if you're not working too far away from your subject. Yes, when you're working with flash and low level ambient light the flash won't freeze action beyond its coverage. So you're right in that things happening outside that area may be blurred due to motion. But then, depending on what shutter speed you're working at, in contrast to the lighter foreground lit by the flash where motion would be stopped, that blurred background can produce some interesting effects. Tupperware containers are frosted plastic tubs basically, that are used to store food. You can buy them at a supermarket or even some hardware stores. Cut a hole in the back to snugly insert your flash head, mount the flash to your bracket and use it either with or without the lid, depending on the flash you've got and the effect you're trying to get. If you were storing marinara sauce in it before, just leave it since it produces a nice warming effect, like an 81EF filter. Well, maybe an 81B. NO JUST KIDDING!! Stephanie: The ceiling had lattice work? The big "OOPS !!" But I'm glad to hear you're not cooking alkalines in your spare time.
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Stephanie Sherwood |
Ha Ha, You guys are funny!
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Stephanie Sherwood |
I forgot to mention in my last comment. so about the tupperware are you saying you use the whole container? circle, sqaure or triangle? That is crazy.Ha Ha, I like that idea, I duno if I could put it into use though I would feel totally silly.
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Kerry L. Walker |
Mark is correct, as usual. A mini softbox is not as efficient as a larger softbox. It is designed to fit over the flash and to be portable. A large softbox on a light stand is much better but it sure is hard to carry when you are shooting a wedding! I'm thinking about switching to a Tupperware container though, the one I have my marinara sauce stored in. This is the one place where Mark is incorrect. It works like an 81mmmmm filter.
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Stephanie Sherwood |
a little update : i tested my flash sync and it was fine it is all user error. So thats comforting but not. ha ha. I will keep you posted though.
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Mark Feldstein |
Well look at all the dough you save on repairs, the ummm, bright side so-to-speak. And for wedding shooters those Tupperware softboxes are great for hauling food away from the reception. An 81mmmmmmmmmm? LOL !!!! Would that be the same as an 81 Y uummmmmmmmmmmm? Hey, speaking of softboxes, Kerry & Stephanie, have you ever set up a mini-portrait studio on location at a wedding to like photograph couples against a nice background? Or not enough time, eh? I can see how a softbox would be really handy for that with a monolight. Just a thought I had. Marinara sauce, wedding food, tupperware...I gotta go forage for food.
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Tammy L. Odell |
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Tammy L. Odell |
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