 Chad Pinches |
Wierd Wedding Situation In a eariler question I wrote about being asked to do a friends wedding. Everyone gave me alot of great advise, thank you. I had my meeting with the bride and groom to go over there VIP list which was rather long. I took this home with me and did some more research on the amount and type of film to use (everyone seems to like the Portra film). After going over the amount of film I think I should have on hand (15 rolls) with the bride and groom, they informed me that they only want me to take at the most 4 rolls of 36 exposure film for there wedding. My questions are: I do understand that it is there wedding and they are trying to keep the cost down as much as possible. I was thinking about telling them that I would just use cheaper film but still send the film out to a decent photo lab. Any suggestions or ideas would be great. Thanks,
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I wouldn't care how much film they say they want. I shoot to make sure I document the day. The bride and groom may have no living idea how much is required. That's your job, not theirs. They can dictate your time, although, that too is highly questioniable. You don't just take one shot of each pose, you need to take about 3 or 4. So, if they are calculating thinking that they need one shot of bride with mom, one with groom with mom, one with bride with dad, etc, etc. Multiply their calculations by about 4 and you might be close to what you need. To give you some idea, for a 7 hour gig, I will shoot about 21 rolls of 36. Portra is nice, but Fuji is better and cheaper. It's print film. Just get the least expensive pro film you can find. It sounds like you may have revealed a price per roll or something to your client. Instead, just package a price for time with all your costs rolled in. Be careful to capture all your costs, for instance, if you push/pull film, that usually costs a little more. If you have any special services, such as touch-up, that usually costs more at your lab. Some labs add cost if you want your black and white proofs printed in Sepia. Once you have all of your costs together, then on top of that, you add how much you would like to stick in your pocket. If you are doing a whole day wedding, and it seems that this may be your first, you should probably walk away with $500. That's my opinion. Because you will work hard! When you consider that after the wedding, you have to take it all to the lab, pick it up, schedule a time to meet with them, sit down with them for an hour or more while they sift through the proofs, etc. Then, they may want re-prints or enlargements, or an album. So, for now, figure out how long you will be there. Plan on shooting 3 rolls an hour, make that a goal for yourself. Price all the costs you will incur. Talk to your lab make sure you fully understand exactly what the cost will be. Then add $500 and that should be your price. Hope this helps you! Good luck! Jerry
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Chad Pinches |
Jerry, Thanks for the reply. You are right about me telling them the price per roll. Since it is a friend, all I am charging is the cost of the film and developing (I also provided an estimated cost per roll for developing). I was going to factor my time and any other expences as a wedding present. I am hoping that I am not making a huge mistake in saying that I would do this for them. Thanks again for your help,
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It's not a mistake, but you will work very hard. Very, very hard. I wont do friends because I can't bear to charge them, and I wont do it at cost. Plus, I actually want to enjoy a friends wedding, not work in it. Again, it's very hard work (did I say that?). I guess you've already provided them with the information and they are basing your shoot on what they can afford. This is the only mistake. Here's what I would do, shoot your 15 rolls and charge them for 4. What you don't want to happen is you missing all kinds of great shot opportunities because you are trying to conserve film. That's just plain dumb, IMO. Then, when you give them the prints, it will be obvious that you shot much more than 4 rolls. Maybe they will help you with the costs, or maybe they will do something later for you as a payback. The main thing is to not miss shots. that's is a huge mistake. That's what they will be happy about. Trust me on this. Get all the shots and shoot alot. You can always toss a bad shot, but you can't go back later and get a good one. Another alternative is to shoot your 4 rolls, and rent a digital camera, if it's available in your area. Rent is usually fairly cheap, around here a Canon 10D is like $20 per day. then you can shoot digital the rest of the wedding and give them a CD with the additional images. No cost. Good luck! Jerry
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Chad Pinches |
Jerry, Thanks again for all of the help. Wish me luck. Chad
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Rhonda L. Tolar |
I have been guilty of quoting the per roll price myself, only to find out later that I am being held back on the number of rolls to shoot. IMHO, I would shoot as much as I felt I needed to to capture the special day. Then, I would have the film processed and turn over the prints and negatives to the bride and groom and let them handle the enlargements and reprints. I have done it this way for very small, weddings for friends. On these very small weddings, I still average 8 to 12 rolls of film. I am not a professional by any means, and usually only do the very small weddings. All of mine have been satisfied with the way I charge. I always will recommend a good lab for them to go to for their enlargements and reprints. I have the initial processing done myself, I NEVER turn over exposed film to the client. I am afraid they will use a bad processer and blame the bad prints on me. So, in my per roll price, I take the cost of film and the cost of processing and double it for my fee. Good luck! and wear comfortable shoes!
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Chad Pinches |
Rhonda, Thanks for the advice. If there ever will be a next time I think I will try your way. Luckily this is a very small wedding. By the way, I will be "gellin like a felon". My local camera shop sends all of there prints out to Kodak for processing for what they call the "Perfect Touch" developing process. Any sugestions on alternatives? My only other choice for this area is a privately owned one hour photo lab and the dreaded Wal-Mart. Thanks again everyone,
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Rhonda L. Tolar |
Chad, Here's the deal, and I will probably be blasted here, I use Eckerd's one hour processing. I have one particular store that I go to, and no others. If you have time before this wedding, you may shoot off a few rolls and try out the ones close to you. But I have been very pleased with their work. Also, they have a commercial program that you can sign up for, and you get a 10% discount on all processing and prints. And...they are running a punch card program right now...process 9 rolls and get the 10th free. If the Eckerds in your area keep their machines clean, you should be able to come up with good prints from them. And if the prints aren't right, but the negatives look good, they will redo them for you. Go to them, talk to the people that work there. If you don't like them, try another location. Also, you might find that the privately owned one hour lab in your area would be a good selection also. Those people are relying good customer service to stay in business, where the WalMarts could care less. Oh and the 10% discount and 10th roll free...that goes into my pocket...I quote the full price to clients...gas is expensive these days!
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John A. Lind |
Chad, I believe what you have run into is the extremely common misconception among non-professionals that pro work is one frame of film equals one proof with a 100% yeild rate. Not so. I also suspect, having presented them with a "cost per roll" pricing that they're tyring to minimize the cost by insisting on a 100% yield rate from you . . . an entirely unrealistic expectation. My yield rate for a wedding in number of proofs delivered is about 45-50% of the total frames shot . . . and that includes double-to-quadruple shooting posed setups (depending on number in grouping) for which I will keep the best of a particular setup and pitch the rest (yield rate from candids only is about 2 of 3). I consume 9-12 rolls of film for a full wedding/reception shoot depending on two factors: size of wedding party and length of time spent before the wedding ceremony and at the reception (how many important events it has). All are 36-exp except for the 30-exp roll of 220 medium format used for some of the portraiture. Large wedding parties means more posed setups with the bridal party. Large bride/groom families can likewise create a larger number of family groupings. The number of posed shots done does affect overall yield rate as there's more repetition. Long reception time with many "marquis" events likewise consumes more film. If flash is banned during the ceremony, there's a of Fuji Press 1600 shot available light and that increases the film-roll count too (it's typically "short-rolled" with about 20+ exposures). Add to that certain "safety" shots such as bride/groom exiting church . . . the one shot at the doorway just in case the one of them running the gauntlet is missed (I've had people deliberately step out in front of me to make their own photo more than once). The real stress for me is not the setups or others for which I can shoot 2-4 to ensure a good one . . . it's the ones for which there's only one shot possible (which thankfully there are not all that many). In countering them you might ask how many photographs (proofs) total they expect . . . and do the pricing on that based on what you anticipate the yield rate being (I'd go about 40% yield). Explain that in order to do it properly some things must be double/triple shot (someone *will* blink in some of them) and that candids do not have 100% yield either. The danger in doing a cost per roll basis is they will know how many frames you were supposed to consume and will want to see *every* proof of *every* frame. Not a good situation; even the BOB's (best of the best) do *not* have 100% yield. -- John Lind
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Good point John. I was trying to make a point about yield, but you explained it well. There is no such thing as 100% yield. It's virtualy impossible due to all the uncontrollable factors, like people blinking, for instance. Jerry
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Chad Pinches |
John, Thanks for the great advice. I have decided to stick with my original plan of around 15 rolls of film. I probrably will not need all 15 rolls since the wedding is going to be very small but it is better to be safe than sorry. As for billing, I plan on sitting down with the bride and groom and explain the yeild rate to them and hope they understand. Since I did make the mistake of telling them the price per roll, I will just count what ever is extra as there wedding gift since they are friends. Again, I want to thank everyone for there great advice.
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John A. Lind |
Chad, I've never exceeded 13 rolls . . . but I've never had a film jam or loading problem that requried severely short-rolling or ditching one entirely (knocking on wood and keeping my fingers crossed). I've thought about taking less, but never felt comfortable dropping down to 10-12 rolls; I get nervous about anything that could be a real show-stopper. Better to be safe than panicking over film (or battery power) and if I ever have any left over . . . it goes toward the next shoot. During a lull if it looks like something will expire I use it for other family photo stuff. -- John Lind
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Chad Pinches |
John, Thanks again for the advice. I do have another question for you. In the future if I ever decide to do a wedding again, should I have a contract made up and signed? I if I should, are there any easy general contracts on the web that I could use? Thanks again,
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Chad, How much film you plan on using may depend on your shooting style. For full day wedding coverage, I easily exceed 21 rolls of 36. A full day is 7 hours. For my unlimited packages, I can easily exceed 30 rolls. So, don't go by some standard that others use. I would recommend seeing how you go on this one and go from there. There are differing styles. I don't shoot sloppily. I hate the just point and shoot approach. I have a very high rate of good shots. A few weekends ago I shot 468 frames for a partial day wedding. I threw away less than 50. In the old days, the opposite would be true. It takes practice, patience, and time. Remember to tilt the camera at the opportune moment, it adds a nice touch. Have fun! Jerry
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Krystal O. Radlinski |
Hi Chad, Hope you don't mind me piping in. But when I was a new professional I used this book http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/158115206X/qid=1091572647/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4325904-9706218?v=glance&s=books and adapted it's templates for my business. It somes with a CD of the forms and has pretty much everything you could need (wedding contracts, stock image contracts, modeling releases, etc.) And, if you are ever in a pinch and need a bit of advice from a full-time wedding specialist (korphoto.com), I'm happy to share. I couldn't have done it without those who gave me a hand up over the years. Best of luck Chad, we can't wait to see the results! -Krystal
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John A. Lind |
Chad, Don't have much time for details . . . Yes, and it should include not only what they can expect from you (approximate number of photos and total time from how long before the ceremony onward) but what you also expect from them . . . how long before the ceremony they should be at the church getting ready, etc., plus a "force majeur" clause (trans: "major force" or "act of God") that absolves you of responsibility for things beyond your control, and a release that allows you to use photos from the shoot to advertise your business and use in a portfolio of your work. -- John Lind
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Chad Pinches |
Krystal and John, Thanks for all of the great information. The book Krystal suggested to me looks great. I am hoping that if my first wedding goes well that maybe I can do this on the side and put my hobbie to use. I want to again thank everyone for all of the great advise. I am very happy that I found this great web site. The wedding is next week, Wish me luck. I will try and post a couple of pictures to this location. Thanks again,
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