 Timothy W. Morris |
Facebook vs. BP Website? There's no denying that Facebook dominates the social circles of the web. I'm strictly a hobbyist (photography), but find that more people see my images if I post them on my personal Facebook page, instead of here on my Pro website. Comments on images are in abundance on Facebook as well, whereas on BP's pages, commenting on a photo takes a viewer back to the home page so they have to retrace their steps to get back to where they were in the photo gallery (have never liked this anyways). The BP website allows one to represent him/herself as a serious hobbyist, and in most cases, a professional. For me, though, not having made ANY money from sales via the BP site, my Pro gallery seems merely like window dressing. Most people, I know, don't leave comments or sign the guestbook. Even being redirected to my website via a Facebook link doesn't seem to generate much traffic. Ultimately, Facebook seems to be the clear cut choice to display work. The problem is that the photos aren't right-click protected, you can't list image prices, and at any given time, Facebook can delete your profile without reason, thus making all your posts disappear. Sorry for the long-winded intro, but my question is this: For those of us that are merely hobbyists who like to have that aura of proffesionalism by having a deluxe/Pro website....is it really worth it? (and this is without taking into consideration the fact that one can create a 'fan page' on Facebook, too). There are pros and cons to both platforms, but I'm curious if there is one area that I've overlooked, or if most people use BOTH platforms to show off their work? Any comments would be awesome, thanks!!
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Mary Iacofano |
facebook...be prepared to having images stolen/used on any site worldwide . happens everyday.
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Lynn R. Powers |
Timothy, I do not do Facebook for the reasons that you gave and the one Mary presented. However if as a hobbyist you want glowing remarks about your photos it is the place you should post. But be aware that the photo knowledge of what is good and what is lacking is severely limited to 25% of the viewers. Now is the time to put on a leather jacket because you are going to need a very thick skin for the following remarks. When you purchase or create your own Pro photo website people are going to expect to be impressed by your galleries. Check out Mary's gallery on lighthouses and compare them with yours. You have to edit your photos stronger and never put into your gallery any photos that have not received at least an "Editors First Pick". IN your last 35 photos that were updated I only found five worthy of your "Pro" gallery. I know that any day in a 'yak is a good day as well as being on any boat is a good day. You are remembering the trip, the smells, the waves rolling under you and enjoy every photo that you took. This you have to eliminate when posting these in your gallery and be heartless and look for the finest of the trip. You don't have to take them off your computer though. They can bring back good memories in later years. But even these should be edited. BP isn't going to like me much for the next statement. I highly recommend that when it comes time for renewal of your Pro Gallery that you decline. You do not have the material yet. Select one of the less expensive ones for sharing. Take the money that you save and enroll in courses by Jim Zuckerman. Check which courses would suit you best. You will find the money well spent and your WOW factor will increase. After a year or so you should have enough GREAT photos to make a "Pro" site worthwhile. I wish you the best of luck.
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Mary Iacofano |
Timothy, I have taken many classes from Jim Zuckerman. His teaching/sharing of knowledge is priceless. If you would like a sample of what he teaches, sign up for his newsletter. www.jimzuckerman.com Lynn, Thank you for the kind words on my website. most of it is so old, I do need to weed it out and simplify the whole site. Your comments mean alot and have made my day. Thank you.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
I'm not sure it's an aura a of professionalism since anybody can get a .com after their name. There's even free ways out there I'm sure. Facebook just has more traffic. You can get more people to see your work by hanging it up near a busy sidewalk. Actual professionals use facebook. So do entertainers. And they also have websites. They use, or used to use MySpace until older people started using MySpace also and made so many of the young crowd look for the next new thing that wasn't being used by older people. And the next same thing that comes out will probably repeat now that the older crowd is coming more and more over to facebook. Even stuff in the grocery store has a facebook page.
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Timothy W. Morris |
Thank you all for the feedback, and Lynn, wow! I sensed quite a bit of Zuckerman-isque style in your constructive criticism of me. haha! I truly appreciate your blunt, straightforward observation. Having taken one of Mr. Zuckerman's classes many years ago, I appreciated his direct critiques as well. I feel no need, however, to defend my images and style of editing. Granted my # of editor's picks are small, but in the case of the kayak images, those weren't posted in the hopes of obtaining any wow! factor. This site is basically a place to share images that those that aren't on Facebook, or any of the other social networking sites. Should I feel the need to go Pro, I would have seriously continued my pursuit of taking more BP classes. Perhaps I'm settling, but the courses I previously took covered what I wanted to learn about. The Pro site, while expensive and intended for the pro photographer, includes options that most all other webhosting sites do not, even the BP Deluxe. That is what appeals to me. So while in the eyes of a pro-photographer I may be wasting money & time with a Pro site, earning money from my work isn't a primary motive. Feedback from family and friends is far more important to me than what a stranger thinks, and thus far, the f & f feedback has been quite positive, if only on social network sites. Gregory, you point out a valid point as well...and I wonder...taking Lynn's critique into consideration....is shelling out over $300 really worth it for merely just getting comments? I think not. =( Thank you all once again, as you've given me a great deal to ponder over now...and just for the record...no hard feelings, and none taken =) Enjoy the remainder of the weekend & happy shooting! -Tim P.S. Mary, yes....awesome lighthouse shots!!!
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Bob Cammarata |
I remember mentioning before that a website at BP cannot generate sales all by itself. It can be an effective tool though to "show what you got" once contact is made via other venues. As for posting the best of the best, I could not agree more! I also agree that as we are all improving each year (hopefully), it makes sense to go back and weed out what we thought was so good a few years ago.
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Thom Schoeller |
Hi Tim, I wonder if you are familiar with Flickr at all? I'm not the only professional photographer that uses it. If not~link is www.flickr.com Anyhow, just from reading your opening post I can understand your frustration and the need to correspond with other photographers/recieve feedback, comments and maybee a critique. You also have the ability to "link" back to your homepage website and add tags to all your images which the web crawlers love. For the cost, it's an efficient way to get your name out there. In a nutshell so to speak, Flickr can be used as a "photo sharing" website to upload basic snapshots, for a serious ameteur to be able to join groups and have their photography critiqued or even as a professional photographer as an additional platform from which to work off. There are more than a few members who are obsessed with obtaining "awards" and praise. They do this by entering their images in Flickrs award groups. Beware: don't get sucked in. Bottom line is that part is all meaningless and helps inflate an ego. I have coined that aspect of Flickr as "hugs and kisses". For my own advantage, I have used the site (flickr) in a similar manner as a stock agency. Carefully wording photo titles, descriptions and further keywords helps magazine editors and advertisers find suitable photographs for any project they are working on. My flickr webpage has helped me get published on a very consistant basis. Lynns advice to you is priceless. She brought up a number of points well worth consideration. I always say "edit, and edit again. edit ruthlessly" All the best~
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chrisbudny.com - Chris Budny Contact Chris Budny Chris Budny's Gallery |
PS---Lynn is a guy ;) PS again---Even with BP's right-click blocker on images (which is great at preventing the majority of casual viewers from copying the small onscreen image), someone can still lift your BP-displayed image off their screen. A viewer can't get your full-sized original image file, however, from BP, even if that is what you uploaded to your BP gallery (talking the basic gallery here...) No online display of images is safe from that; at least by displaying at 800 pixels long-side in a BP gallery, anyone lifting that modest-sized screen image is getting a pretty tiny, low-res result. Some sites allow you to display a much bigger on-screen image to the viewer, or even let viewers download the original file that the photographer uploaded (which could be quite large and high-res); when those are lifted by a viewer, obviously it gives them a lot more pixels to work with, for their own printing/copying purposes. Just didn't want Mary's comment above to imply that BP gallery images are somehow uniquely safe from being lifted/used without your consent---they are not safe from that; no image in a web browser window is.
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Thom Schoeller |
@ PS, Lynn is a guy! MY bad! Apologies to Lynn, I haven't spent much time on BP forums. Brings up when Bill Parcells (NE Pats) referred to "terry" Glen as "she". I am at a loss however, why he often may add his own feedback on a BP thread but does not have a webpage to view. Strictly as a reference, as I am able to back up my own advice through my work.
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Lynn R. Powers |
Thomas, No problem since someone else corrected you about my gender. :=) I had a basic gallery here on BP but had considerable troubles with it, especially when it came to organizing photos in the different albums. When the price went to $49 I declined to renew my gallery and now am only able to add photos for entry into the monthly contest. However I made a BIG mistake and changed over to a Mac and now I am unable to even download my files into BP. As far as this thread is concerned I did use a someone else's site to show my point. As it turns out the individual only wants remarks from friends and family so that makes him feel good. I do stand by my remarks about him wasting his money on a pro site when he could get what he desires straight from Facebook. I do belong to a couple other forums and post an occasional photo on them. I keep those photos stored at photobucket where it is easy to transfer my photos for c&c or just to show where I have been or what I have been doing. I have tried to transfer one to this site here. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/LynnPowers/_MG_1591_Master.jpg I took a look at your gallery and it is beautiful and done with professionalism.
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Lynn R. Powers |
NUTZ!!! No photo. How do we post here? I hope we don't have to run around the house clockwise three times then one counterclockwise, face South and say the magic words while bowing to the four corners of the compass then walk around to the back door and hit enter. One explanation I saw a year ago wasn't even that easy.
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Timothy W. Morris |
RE: As it turns out the individual only wants remarks from friends and family so that makes him feel good. Lynn, you are SO missing the point of my question if you believe that all I want is comments. Like you, I can sit here and list my "credentials", but I'm not here to join a pissing contest (pardon my French). And yes, those that are on Facebook generally aren't qualified to be judges of professional photographs, but who ever said that's what I was looking for? In fact, most people (friends & family) who are buying my work, have bought pieces that I would never have thought would have sold, say in a gallery. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don't need thick skin to receive your critiques because, quite frankly, what YOU feel are worthy candidates to remain on my website greatly differ from my opinion of my own work. Just because it's a PRO site, doen NOT mean that I can't use it for other purposes than to promote professional looking photographs. You shouldn't let the type of website that it is sway you into thinking like that ;) I like to think of it as an expensive photo journal. If an image strikes someone as interesting, and they want to buy one, so be it. I'm also fully aware that once an image is online, it can be lifted. The snipping tool can do just that. All the other sites out there, including Flikr, and Devian Art also require visitors to sign up to their site in order to leave comments, but based on all the feedback I've been accumulating over that last month, if it's on Facebook, it will be seen/commented on/critiqued moreso there than having to go to another site, hope that someone will take the time to log in/create an account, and then peruse the galleries. Comments are NOT the sole reason I love and am involved in this hobby. Personal satisfaction and creating a photographic journal, of sorts, to remember my life, IS. For those of you whose opinion of my work is less than desirable, to each his/her own, I say. =) Mary, Lynn, Gregory, Bob, Thomas & Christopher, thanks to all for your input, suggestions and responses! Happy shooting! =)
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Thom Schoeller |
Your welcome Tim. Tim you responded to Lynn that he was "SO missing the point". I think I may have comprehended your post in a similar manner to Lynn. A few keywords and phrases = conclusion. You wrote "For me,though,not having made ANY money from my BP site, my Pro gallery seems merely like window dressing." Then you followed with "those of us that are merely hobbyist who like to have that aura of professionalism by having a Pro BP website". Based on that, my response backed up Lynn's ~ I said Lynn's advice to you was priceless. I think the best way to sum up his advice was to save you some hard earned cash and for now avoid the costly Pro website reserved for e-commerce. Tim, your second comment I quoted is actually telling the world directly "I am a sheep dressed as a wolf." Perhaps you did not intend for it to come across like that? In case your not aware, this is a sore subject amongst the professional ranks. Read the BP forum under the subject of "The Business" and go to "Flood of photographers lately". You just responded to Lynn, and in your rebuttal you can be quoted as saying "what YOU feel are worthy candidates to remain on my website greatly differ from my opinion of my own work." Keep in mind Tim, you alone posted work on a professionals tool in an E-commerce photographers gallery. Yes, that does leave the door ajar to have your work critically acclaimed or just the opposite. In this case, you asked for advice in the form of "Facebook vs. BP Website?". Advice followed your request. Other sites: yep FlickR requires that you join to comment on pics. MILLIONS of people belong to Flickr, and you can join for free. Flickr can be a useful tool for yourself as you learn the trade. Perhaps one day you will take it from a hobby to a part time income. You can watermark all your images, and disable downloads. Again, you can solicit comments as constructive critique in many groups. They ~Flickr~ have NO peers amongst the photo sharing websites. Facebook does not hold a burned out candle to Flickr, and again Facebook is not a birth right. Last I recall, you need to take the time to log in, create an account and then search! I never need to sign in each time I go to my Flickr website.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
I think Apple provided some free web pages to Mac users. Maybe there are some blogs that are free that you could link to from your facebook page. I've only commented in a couple and I think all that's usually needed is to add your email address along with your comment. Not as a registration procedure, just for responding back purposes. And there's also Go Daddy. I don't know how that works. I just think it's free website hosting.
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Timothy W. Morris |
Thank you for your response, Thomas! I got a chuckle out of the "sheep dressed as a wolf" line...haha! However, the idea of being a wolf is to lure in unsuspecting prey, then pounce & devour. So while the general consensus amongst this forum may be that I'm wasting money on the BP-PRO site since I'm not even in the same league as the pros, the benefits of using BP as my webhost certainly have more than what I could get using anyone else, just with a higher price tag. The BP site allows anyone to visit it, and no sign-up is required to comment, or leave a guestbook entry...but I'm preaching to the choir here...haha. I have nothing against Flikr, but some of the, shall I say, less internet savvy people who enjoy my work, aren't likely to sign up for any site just for the sake of commenting. Which is why they aren't on Facebook, either. Personally, I have no problem checking out other folks galleries, no matter what site they have them posted on. And sure, the door is ajar to receive comments from the pros both positive and negative, but that's not limited to just an E-commerce site. And I'd like to think that even the pros don't strictly post images that they feel everyone will like? Personally, I shoot for me, and as mentioned waaayyy above..haha, my own satisfaction. If my photos don't meet minimum requirements and the pros scoff at them, and me....oh well, move on then, I say. There can be mountains of debates and discussions on how newbies/amateurs/intermediates are treated by pros, both, again positively and negatively. So many forums chew up and spit out photog hopefulls that it's actually embarassing how mean and cruel some can be. Being able to let the negative critiques, and judgmental accusations just bounce off, takes some getting used to. (Years ago, Lynn's comments would have had me sell my camera on E-bay, get rid of all my pics, and shut down the website, never to press another shutter release again...haha!). For the record, though, I know where I stand, and the limitations of my skills. Never will, nor have I, claim(ed) to be pro. Perhaps obtaining the Pro website gives the illusion that my ego is bigger than my work, but that's not the case. Trust me =) I simply love to take photos, and share them. I don't strive to become a pro, but am always willing to learn new things in the field. This thread, though, has been eye-opening! Thanks again! =)
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Timothy W. Morris |
P.S. LOOOOOOOOVE!!! the Point Judith lighthouse shots!!!!! Awesome!!
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Timothy W. Morris |
Gregory, thanks for your input, too! =) Blogging was definitely another option I considered as well...I've not yet tried to add photos as part of a blog, so the verdict is still out on whether or not that would be an alternative to BP's sites. And yes, you're right about the email address required to comment...not for registration, just for response purposes. I think the problem I would have with the photo blogs though is that I wouldn't be able to pick just one photo to post per blog...lol...and since there isn't really a "gallery" (unless there is and I'm not aware how to do it), I would have about 12 blog entries everytime I sat down to post pics...haha!
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Monnie Ryan |
Timothy, I know several people who are using blogs to showcase their photos, interspersing several amid commentary. I write a restaurant review blog that includes 3-4 photos, although mine are quite small because the focus is on the writing. I use blogspot.com for my blogs, as do several of my friends like this one (if you want to see what she's done with it - her photos are large): http://hannibalsanimals.blogspot.com Point is don't rule out blogs thinking you're limited to one photo per entry. --Monnie
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Courtenay Vanderbilt |
"However I made a BIG mistake and changed over to a Mac and now I am unable to even download my files into BP." Sorry to hijack this thread, but Lynn if you save your edited images to the Desktop you can easily upload them to BP. Then move the file as you wish elsewhere. Hope that helps!
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chrisbudny.com - Chris Budny Contact Chris Budny Chris Budny's Gallery |
... ;) I would counter that my switch to Mac was the best thing I ever did, and I don't keep my images on the desktop. I simply upload to BP from wherever I store them on the drive, as I did with my PC before. I hope Lynn's got the file issues worked out by now! (And to the original topic, I still can't quite bring myself to join or pursue Facebook!)
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Courtenay Vanderbilt |
I just tried to make direct contact with Lynn...sadly, it looks like he has vacated BP...
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Lynn R. Powers |
Boy! I turned off the computer at 5:30PM PDT last night and catch the devil for it. :=) Courtney I sent you an email. All of my photos are put into Photos in the Finder section. That is except for those that are in Photobucket that I transfer to some of the other forums for discussion or use for email, very seldom. Since my screen looks as if a kitten has walked all over the upper left side with dirty feet Adobe wants me to get a replacement for my current computer. These "footprints" cannot be cleaned off because they are on the inner screen. If there were some dust bunnies on my sensor in this section I would never notice them. Hopefully I will be up and running next week. I may have to have some surgery done and things may take longer than I suspect.
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Lois Wilkes |
I have the BP $49/yr online gallery which I will email to friends who want to see it. A camera club buddy asked for it so I put the link to it on FB. When the link is opened you cannot right click on it as you can with photos put directly on FB. I don't sell through either of these. I sell greeting cards at a local place where I live or occasionally an art show entry will sell. I do not try to make a living at photography, its nice to sell but basically it is a hobby for me.
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