Daisy II

Uploaded: August 01, 2012


Exif: F Number: 13, Exposure Bias Value: 0.00, ExposureTime: 10/500 seconds, Flash: did not fire., ISO: 100, White balance: Manual white balance, FocalLength: 60.00 mm, Model: NIKON D5100


Elaine Hessler August 02, 2012

Not sure which one is better-let me know what you think and why please! #1478357

Elaine Hessler August 02, 2012

Whoops-I didn't mean to name them both the same. How about "upper" and "lower" photo. Or whatever. #10259738

Dale Hardin August 02, 2012

The best comp is the upper one, and the best focus, the lower one. Now all you have to do is combine the two.

I would recommend a re-shoot with expanded DOF and less noise, with an emphasis on not showing space between the petals.

Also, you might try using an off camera flash at the side, to add some shadow and texture to the image. #10260258

Jeff E Jensen August 02, 2012

Yup, Dale hit it on the head, combine the two and you are set :o)

I love the drops. #10260583

Stephen Shoff August 02, 2012

I agree with an exception. In the top image, the just one area of green adds a lot of interest. I think there needs to be a little more richness in the colors -- perhaps checking levels or blach/white points -- but maybe Dale's off-camera flash idea would help that as well. Unless, of course, you were going for a high-key effect, in which case you'd need a little more high-key to make it clear. #10260643

Rita K. Connell level-classic August 03, 2012

I love the water drops, I have to agree with dale on this one also. combine the two and you are set. I prefer the petals coming down w/s up. up makes me think those water drops should be falling off. #10261277

Michael Kelly level-deluxe August 03, 2012

I prefer the first one mostly do to the DOF which keeps all the visible areas in focus. I do agree with Dale's assessment though that a combination of the two would be great. #10261605

Beth Spencer August 03, 2012

I agree with Dale, it is hard to get it all focused in close up shots... You did really great with the water drops. Congratulations on your EP! #10261852

Elaine Hessler August 03, 2012

Thanks for the input! I took this picture for a class I am taking and had a ton of issues. I made my own dew when I got up early as it was bone dry out. Then the sun went in when I took the first set of shots. Then it came out after I went in again.... The setup was "interesting". I had the camera upside down on my tripod about 6 inches off the ground. I had to use the live view to focus, which was difficult to see in the bright light,, hence the focus issues. And I was looking at an upside down image. I learned that my 60mm lens is NOT the one to use to get a big DOF, no matter what the aperture. I'll give it another shot providing my flowers haven't been eaten by the bunnies! Thanks for your comments-I couldn't quite figure out what wasn't quite right with these images. #10261893

Elaine Hessler August 04, 2012

Hi-I am attempting to reshoot these pictures. Here is my problem. From what I gather from the comments, it would be nice if I could get most of this shot in focus. I used my 60mm on the above shots, and tried to reshoot this using the same lens at an f 20, but am still getting too shallow of a DOF. So I tried using my 200mm and 18-55mm lens to get more DOF, but can't get in as close-evidently the minimum focusing distance is a lot bigger than with the 60mm. I guess I could use these lenses, then crop, but I know there is a better way. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks. Like Dale said, the more I learn, the more I find I don't know. Ugh. Isn't ignorance bliss? #10262479

Elaine Hessler August 04, 2012

Here's what I am talking about.... #10262490

Dale Hardin August 04, 2012

Sometimes what we think is too shallow a DOF is simply caused by not being on a flat plane when shooting.

In other words, when the focus is shallow, it's important to be at a 90 degree angle from the entire subject. If you are tilted slightly, the shallow DOF will result in some areas sharp and some soft because some area will be further away.

With todays cameras with their high pixed count, there is nothing wrong with using a crop to get what you want.

In your last sample, it appears to have enough DOF, it's just that the entire image is a little soft. I've taken the liberty of applying some focus correction and you can see that the correction is equal over all the image.

Mike and Stephen can give you better info on lens choice etc. for future efforts. #10262499

Michael Kelly level-deluxe August 04, 2012

Elaine - simple rules for DOF:

The longer the lens, the closer the subject, and the more open the lens (f5.6 vs f11) the narrower the DOF. So to increase or decrease DOF change one or more of the above.

Dale is correct in that moving back a little and making a crop will help because of the 2nd factor above. You have to balance that so that you don't move to far back that your crop will be below the camera resolution. Also his advice of keeping your subject parallel to the plane of the camera (specifically the sensor) is also very important when dealing with narrow DOF.

I think Dale's sample just applying a bit of sharpening looks good. So you took a great shot and just needed one more step in post processing to make it look the best possible. #10262567

Peter W. Marks August 04, 2012

Yup, what they said! But not what I need to see when we are on our 22nd day of over 100F temperatures and our yard looks like a dried up desert.
Oh yea,almost forgot. Pretty flower Elaine! lol #10262578

lisa anderson August 04, 2012

Hi Elaine, congrats on your EP. I like the top photo best of all. I agree that the small green area is such a wonderful detail that it really adds to the photo. #10263040

Debbie E. Payne August 05, 2012

Obviously, you picked he right one, Elaine! Congratulations on the EP, too.

Teresa H. Hunt August 05, 2012

Ooooo I love the water drops! :)

One thing I've learned is that shooting close subjects like this is incredibly frustrating. I've been shooting water drops and flowers and wanted to pull my hair out. Keep practicing, you're getting there. I love Daisy 3, and Dale's sharpening really helped. :) #10264038

Stephen Shoff August 06, 2012

In order to avoid getting into the mathematics, I'll agree with 2 of Mike's 3 (subject distance, aperture). I think if you search the literature, you will find some very technical-based difference of opinion on whether or not focal length has real or only apparent influence on DOF. Focal length does have an influence on manageability. So standing back and still being able to get the same framing can make getting the shot easier, and reduce the impact of subject movement. Even without maintaining framing, I think Dale's point about high-density sensors and cropping has merit.

In the case of your re-shoot, Elaine, my preference would be to emphasize Dale's "you need to be as perpendicular as possible" to you subject. Otherwise you increase the need for deep DOF more than might be necessary. However, even that becomes a photographer's conscious decision depending on your compositional intent.

But I think there is an additional lens consideration that hasn't been brought up, and is the reason why Mike shoots with the 100mm f2.8 Macro lens. It is simply one of the "gold standard" lenses in Canon's line-up of macro/close-up lenses. I may be off base here since I don't know Nikon lens lines or what you are using, but lens quality becomes increasingly important as you start to need to bring out detail in these close-up flower shots. You may just simply be working at the limits of your equipment. I simply can't take the same quality picture with my old Tamron 28-200 macro (that I bought to use on an Elan 2e film camera) mounted on my Canon 5D Mark II than I can with the Canon 100mm f2.8 Macro.

When I first opened up this re-shoot image on my work computer and monitor, I thought the image was incredibly sharp and had a hard time understanding Dale's initial response. It looked pretty good to me -- especially the single drop hanging off the petal in the bottom left corner. Astounding. I love this picture for that one detail.

To me, Dale's sharpening helped the center of the blossom on the upper left corner, but not the rest of it. Maybe he applied the sharpening selectively to accommodate his reference to camera tilt.

Quite frankly, I don't see that his sharpening helped that any. Of course, he is working from a screen capture. So I think I'd very much like to see a sharpened version from the full image, since you don't mention that you did any sharpening yourself in posting this picture.

I envy your diligence in working on your technique. I don't do nearly enough of that. I'm with Teresa on that score. Water drops are frustrating. Still I prefer the composition of your original post with the little area of strong color contrast.


Stephen Shoff August 06, 2012

Guess I need to correct my comment about Mike's lens choice...in deference to his shooting info for the hummingbird. He uses the 100mm lens when he can get close enough. But he dearly loves his 70-200. #10265743

Elaine Hessler August 07, 2012

Thank you for all of your input. This was not supposed to be do difficult!!! I believe I did sharpen a bit, I'll go back and look. On my monitor, Dale's sharpened image looks a bit pixilated to me, probably because of hat you mentioned, he is working with a screen capture. I'll try sharpening again, but I don't think any amount of sharpening will bring the out of focus area back into focus. I will try to reshoot later this week if I don't throw my camera out the window...... Thanks again for all the info on lenses. I am just starting to understand their best uses and limitations. Thanks for the tutorials everyone! #10266237

Beth Spencer August 07, 2012

Be patient with yourself. Shooting macro to me is very frustrating but worth it when you get the shot!! I still struggle trying to get everything on the same plane and in focus!
You are doing great and your edit is great! Keep working at it.. #10267008

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