 Amber J. Skene |
Cd's for Clients Okay, before anyone gives me a hard time, I know many photographers are against this. But, I also know many photographers do sell thier images on a CD to their clients. So, my question is this:
If you are cropping to 4X6, how are they able to get high quality bigger prints from that? Thanks for any help!
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
I think you ought to base it on if you feel you've gotten fair compensation. If it doesn't matter at all to you, it easier to transfer to a disk as is. If you want to scale your pricing, making the cheapest can be ready for viewing with your browser. The costliest can be print ready. You can crop to 4x6 and still retain the original pixel count. If you don't set a resolution with photoshop, the pixels will be compacted into the 4x6. It'll be up to them to resize properly for bigger sized prints.
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Jerry Frazier |
The best thing to do is not do this. If you do, just provide either high-res files, no cropping or anything. or Low-res images, no cropping. In my experience, cropping confuses clients. Even when you tell them, it confuses them because clients don't understand cropping.
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Desiree Chapman |
when we sell a CD, we sell it with our copyright printalbe to an 8x10. Then we size every picture to a 7x9 or whatever it will size down proportionalely. we set out dpi at 180. that way it's very hard to get anything that looks great bigger then an 8x10.
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Danielle E. Rutter |
I do the same as Desiree. It ONLY includes prints and nothing special (like storyboards) printable up to 8x10 in size. My price for it is set so that I would be satisfied if that were all they bought, but the hope is that they wouldn't. They also get a limited release stating that they can only print it up to 8x10. Can I guarentee that this will stop them? No. But it's the best I can do!
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Jerry Frazier |
Clients don't know what they want. So, I would encourage all of you who "sell" the CD of images to stop. Ask your clients what they want. they will say, "the CD". But, keep asking, 'why do you want the CD'. Eventually, they'll say, 'I don't know'. You then go into a conversation about why they want photos and what they plan to do with them, etc. And, with every thing they mention, make sure you offer that. Eventually, you will find, that clients don't actaully understand that a photographer can provide everything that they need. So, what's the point of a CD? In the end, everyone will be happier. That's my plea to you.
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Pete H |
Hello Amber, Given the limited scope of your question, I'll try to advise. In the 4x6 size if you are using a APS sized sensor, there is little problem if your customer wishes to make prints at a 1 hr. You also have little work in doing a batch crop of all the images. 5x7 and 8x10 are a whole new issue. As some have already said, most consumers that hire a photog have not the slightest idea what cropping is, let alone post processing. Your question is a two edged sword. On one side of this is YOU doing all the cropping in 5x7 and 8x10. Usually impossible in batch processing unless you framed each photo perfectly; so there is a lot of time expended. The latter statement is one of professional choice and a issue of much contention with photogs. NOT cropping the images for your CD saves you time and energy. So what do you do?
Pete
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Chris H. Ludwick |
I've been against this since the beginning and have lost jobs because of it. The reason most people want these disc is so they can save $$ by printing them themselfs. Even make their own slide shows. After weighing the pros & cons, and i've noticed a big decrease in print reorders (most likley cuz their scanning & reprinting) I've decided to include all the images on a disc for weddings. I don't resize or crop, why waste the time? Let them do it. The trend I see is to get paid for as much as possible up front for photographing, and not count on so much for reprints for income. Of corse there are those high end market areas where this wouldn't apply.
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Danielle E. Rutter |
I agree with Chris. This is a new thing and it is impossible to avoid. By refusing to join in, you only risk losing potential customers ... but you aren't going to stop it from happening. It's sad but true. I was very against it for awhile too. I figure I handled it the best way for myself by setting the price high. I also don't advertise that I offer it, but only tell people if I am asked. There are some very successful studios that revolve around giving out just the CD. If handled properly, I really don't think this would be such a horrible thing. The REAL problem is the photogs who are giving the CD away for $50.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
I see it as you decide on a price based on getting several prints of an image. With just the sell of prints, there are some images that will be ordered as multiple prints, but generally, most will be ordered as one print. So make a price for a cd based on a reprint potential but still within a salable range. If you give a cd out, don't you price your whole package to give you something for it?
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Debby A. Tabb |
When I do this, it is usually during Sports,animal or events where I am there shooting one after the other. They are given 2-3 chices on packages and then the CD one. Most do choose the CD and are given a release to print which also states that "they have choosen to purchase the Cd: some small editing may be done but the images will not be sized in various ways for print.Please check with your Lab for qoates on any extra crop charges. We recommend Mpix for all you Lab work." These on site jobs we shoot, view and print(in most cases there) so offering the Cd saves on time and money for me. Just my thoughts,
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Jerry Frazier |
Again, this conversation always gets so diluted. From the OP, my assumption was we are talking about portraits. In portrait photography it is stupid to provide a CD unless you are charging $3,000 for it or something. The reason is that with the exception of a few big names in the industry, no one can charge $3k for a portrait sitting. Most of us probably range somewhere around $50 to $300 for a sitting fee. From that point, you HAVE to make money. The way you make money is selling prints, albums, and other finished products. If, at that point, you can sell a CD of images for $2k or something, then maybe you should do it. But, I want to at least provide a large print (minimum 20x30), and then after that, we can discuss why they want a CD. If they just want it for website, facebook, myspace, or whatever, fine, I can res down something for that. But, if they want a slideshow, I make those. If they want prints, I make those. If they want an album, I make those. So, I can't see how allowing clients to take my work and do it cheaper elsewhere benefits ME at all. I turn away potential clients everyday. But, it's OK. That is not a market I want to be in because you cannot compete on price. If you compete on price, you will always lose. Someone else will always figure a way to do it cheaper than you at a good quality level. So, that's not a place where you want to go. You want to stay above that and provide good quality customer service, a great expereince, and something that they can't get by going anywhere else. Don't compete or worry about price so much. Good portrait clients are not price sensitive. They want a full-service studio that will take care of them. All the others can go to photograhers who don't understand the business and can get a $50 and a CD shoot, but it will look like that. As for weddings, the cat's been out of the bag for a long time now. There's no way to fix that one. Just charge what you can upfront, and provide the files. As for event photography, I know studios that do not release the files, and they do printing at the event, and that is the ONLY time the families can order of Johnny catching the ball, or whatever. No online, no second chances. it sounds harsh, but they are successful with that strategy.
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Debby A. Tabb |
Well, what works for one may not always work for another. You can only try ,and see if you are happy with the results. When one looks at my gallery,they know I am talking Portraits as well pets/ team/sports/ couples ect. on site and Studio. This has been very successful in my business. I turn no one away, for any reason except child crulity, abusive behavior or any kind,or if they prove to difficult to want to work with after consult. I do offer portraits on line through my photo reflect account but at much high prices and 2 weeks after the event or sitting. Again this works for me, I do not claim it is best, or the way to go for everyone. I hope this helps, Debby
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Jerry Frazier |
Debby, I wonder if you've tried in studio projection as the only offer. What a HUGE difference it has made in my bottom line. After doing that, I absolutely will not put anything online. Your profits decrease so fast it's just pitiful, and it's because clients steal. I understand where you are coming from, but it's totally worth the extra effort. Online, I probably sold around $300-$500. Doing projection, my sales average closer to around $3,000 per session. It has revolutionized the way I think about portrait photography. And, is supplementing my wedding photography income nicely. Just consider it. Also, the argument goes that one might say, my clients will never do that. I have transferred almost all my clients over to the new system, and they are happier than they were before because I actually service them now; show them what is possible, rather than leave them to imagine what an 8x10 looks like. I don't even sell 8x10's anymore, it's all 16x24's and 20x30 canvas prints, and albums. Cheers.
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Debby A. Tabb |
I'm not sure I know what your refering to by Projection, I do a show right after the sitting on the computer. but would love to here more about it. Everything is worth a try when your lively hood depends on the Now! Thank you,
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Sounds like he does an old fashioned slide show in the studio. With power point you can do some quick editing for contrast and stuff, and show what a 16x24 would look like. Get a quick impression made on the people, and they probably order it right there. Good idea. The only portrait where it would make some sense to provide cd's would be headshots.
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Jerry Frazier |
Debby, I use ProSelect software, use a laptop and projector and project the images onto a screen. The thing about ProSelect is it is a great tool. You can show clients real size on the screen. You can take their orders right there on the spot and it totals as they add prints, frames, and whatever. You can print out an invoice from Proselect on the spot. There's nothing that can even come close to it. It works well because I project everything at 20x30. When they see the size of an 8x10, which they think is a big print, they realize it's a small print. And, they wind up ordering big, which I like. A laptop is OK, but it's too small, you have to go BIG. That's where the power of projection is. The other thing about projection is you can never put anything online or you just blow it. I go to their homes for this because I like to look around at their wall space, it works out really well. I can pinpoint places where photos will work and suggest sizes and frames. Plus, they are relaxed, we have wine, watch a slideshow via Proselect, and then start to whittle down to their favorites. The projection session is the only time they have to order. Nothing goes online and there are no discs involved. I am thinking about adding a small res disc because for seniors for instance, the web is a viewing method for them, they don't want prints. So, a small low res CD might work for me, but I'm still thinking about that. Anyway, FWIW, there it is. And, Gregory, it's not really old-school. There are many out there doing this and very successfully. I learned about it last year, and at first thought it was dumb and old thinking. Then, I decided to try it based on the results I was hearing about from some young, hip photographers who were telling me about it. The results speak for themselves. My average sale is way up. And, they clients dig the experience. My biggest fear is they would reject the idea, but they all enjoy it.
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Chris H. Ludwick |
Hey Jerry's right. This is a very good method indeed, I first saw it done in 2001, by a photog who did Seniors. He would have them sit in this room with soft music going and show the pics on a screen from one of those $$$ projectors. Then he would do the order right there, they took nothing home to view. This worked well for him, with the only drawback being that he had to get the Parent there with the kid to do this, and this day in age that can be tough sometimes. This would be IMO the best way to do it for a Portrait Photog. I do mainly weddings & Seniors so I havn't gone this route (maybe I should for Seniors) but they seem to want to take stuff home to show relatives & friends to get there opinions before ordering. But the way things are going i'm really liking Jerry's idea here for Seniors.
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Jerry Frazier |
Chris, I separate the session from the viewing. After the shoot, I schedule the viewing session with them right there and tell them they have to bring their parents. I would never show the images right then and there. I think that's a mistake. It makes it seems all so easy. And, there are things you can do, like create different types of collages for sale. Plus, I may have several in a row. I like to work on all the images (I do alot of artsy stuff to them - so maybe that's the difference. I would never ever show out of camera shots. When the client sees them, they are absolutely spectacular with dodging/burning/cropping and whatever they need - this is very important for projection to be effective IMO). I feel it is important to separate the shoot from the viewing. The two things have completely different purposes. People don't seem to mind having to come back. Remember, it's the only way they get to see what you did, so they don't mind at all. This is why putting them online would kill your sale. Once they see them, they have no motivation for coming in, or keeping their appointment. Anyway, FWIW. Give it a try. If you have any more questions, feel free to contact me.
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Chris H. Ludwick |
Opps my bad Jerry, I didn't explain that better. He did exactly as you: I separate the session from the viewing. After the shoot, I schedule the viewing session with them right there and tell them they have to bring their parents. Yeah I agree, you would never do it right after the shoot.
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Jerry Frazier |
Chris, For anyone who is reading this, I made my money back and then some after the first viewing session. The software is very cheap compared to what it will do for you.
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Debby A. Tabb |
I patteren my business practises after some of the Major Companies I have taught for, and have found them to really work for me. The philosophy being to show and sell while the clients are still very excited about thier shoot! and a truth is found in the fact that once they leave and have a day or two to think about bills,rent,trips,any and all expences the order will dwindle. have seen this as very much a truth to me. When working with a company at any given time I work with no less then 11 studios,up to 32. For those who have viewed thier images,decided on a large order but did not come prepared to pay at that time 7 out of 10 times that order either gets quite a bit smaller or is lost completely. So for me I ask them to give me about 15 mins. do so quick editing ( see the Digital Darkroom Programes) and then as I show I may say and lets play with this a bit,do more touch up or PS tricks and they see how much work goes into this right then and there. I have never had a single soul tell me this looks easy. But again this works VERY well for me.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Actually, it is a reapplying of something that's already been around. A tried and true marketing technique for just about everything. Slide projector, digital projector. Hip new photographers, yada yada... It's still the same. But still a good idea. A dressed up way of doing the slide show instead of passing around the box of slides.
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Amber J. Skene |
Thank you all so much for the great advice. I still haven't decided what to do yet, or the best way to go about it IF I decide to do it. You all have made wonderful points and it is something I really need to think about.
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