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Interest

BetterPhoto.com Photo Contest SECOND PLACE Winner
 
Interest
Interest
© Jean Papo
Canon EOS 10D Digi...
 
 
 
Iva Villi
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/30/2003
    Great photo Jean!!! :o)


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12/3/2003 1:50:37 AM

 
Connie L. Carpenter
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/27/2002
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This is just amazing, Jean... I love the high key background. Wonderful image.


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12/3/2003 3:49:08 AM

 
Carolyn  M. Fletcher
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/6/2001
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Very good, Ms.Jean!! Love it!


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12/3/2003 4:09:28 AM

 
Patricia A. Kuniega
BetterPhoto Member Since: 5/17/2003
 

Splendid Jean! You've captured the hunting cat: sleek, poised and ready to pounce! Wonderful!!!


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12/3/2003 4:10:35 AM

 
Stephen Zacker
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/6/2003
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Great photo Jean!


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12/3/2003 4:28:03 AM

 
Gail Stelick  

Terrific photo, Jean!


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12/3/2003 4:49:37 AM

 
Sharon D. Waters
BetterPhoto Member Since: 8/13/2003
 

Another awesome image!


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12/3/2003 5:11:43 AM

 
Karen Engelbreth
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/17/2003
 

I agree with everyone else Jean!


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12/3/2003 5:15:52 AM

 
Judith G. Secco
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/18/2002
 

You just keep getting better and better and better and better.....
Wonderful shot, Jean.
Judy


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12/3/2003 5:20:22 AM

 
Paula Lechten  

Your cat shots have been phenomenal


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12/3/2003 6:31:49 AM

 
June Marie Sobrito
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/11/2001
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Outstanding!! Love all these shots!


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12/3/2003 9:46:32 AM

 
Darren K. Fisher
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/7/2002
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I have to agree OUTSTANDING!!!!


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12/3/2003 6:54:55 PM

 
James Cooper  

Awesome capture here, Jean. But I wonder if it wouldn't be better with the original background whatever it might have been. In my opinion, the digital white takes away from the beauty of the cat. Let your subject be your subject, and leave it at that, rather than trying to add passion to it later....the original subject is plenty. Great capture.


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12/3/2003 9:16:37 PM

 
Evy Johansen
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/16/2002
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Beautiful, Jean!!!


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12/3/2003 9:40:34 PM

 
Jean Papo
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  (Interest)  (original "before" pic...yuk)
(Interest) (original "before" pic...yuk)
Case of trying to create lemonade out of lemon
© Jean Papo
Canon EOS 10D Digi...
 
Thanks, everybody, I'm happy you liked this pic! It's an honor to me that you guys take the time and energy to comment... JC, If you're reading these discussion threads, I especially wanted to share with you my "before" photo...It really was a studio white paper that I was using, and the digital part only came in to clean up some areas that needed it. So, hahahaha, here it is in all its glory....I'll bet you would agree with me that the doctored version is better in this case....eliminated some distracting clutter, substituted a more appropriate mouse, as well as changing the placement of it. In some recent shots, I have been trying to capture cats in motion or the cat essence and thus choice to keep the background as simple as possible. Let me know what you think! Thanks for your opinion; it's always nice to get other people's viewpoints or suggestions like yours!


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12/4/2003 12:10:23 AM

 
James Cooper  

Jean, If it's the cat you wanted to highlight, I agree with the studio white paper, but I still say that it's beter to take a complete photo. Get your subject in front of the background you want it in front of rather than shooting the subject and adding a background, or filling in the lack of background later. A great captue of the cat, I'm just not big on digital enhancement.


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12/4/2003 10:31:14 AM

 
Jean Papo
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Yes, I would prefer that myself (getting the cat completely in front of the background), but in this case, she did not cooperate - so I made the best of what was there and got to practice my PS lesson(s) while doing it. Thanks for your comments, JC!


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12/4/2003 11:34:34 AM

 
Dominique Declerck
BetterPhoto Member Since: 1/11/2003
 

CONGRATULATIONS ..S..S..S!!!!!


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1/15/2004 2:36:35 AM

 
mariette geest  

lovely shot!!


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1/15/2004 3:03:07 AM

 
Sharon E. Lowe
BetterPhoto Member Since: 8/7/2002
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Congrats again Jean!!


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1/15/2004 6:25:09 AM

 
Terry  R. Hatfield
BetterPhoto Member Since: 1/4/2003
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Hi Jean I Bet Your Just Tickled To Death!! Congrats On #4 Finalist Another Fine Image!!


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1/15/2004 11:04:38 AM

 
Karen Engelbreth
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/17/2003
 

Congrats again Jean!!


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1/15/2004 11:08:49 AM

 
Evy Johansen
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/16/2002
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Many congratulations again, Jean!


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1/15/2004 10:13:57 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Dominique, Mariette, Sharon, Terry, Karen, and Evy! It is uplifting to see that somebody enjoys looking at my pix...makes all the trials and errors worth it, and inspires me to keep trying to improve and entertain a bit along the journey! Hats off to you and your great work in return!


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1/15/2004 10:23:29 PM

 
Lee Ann Sahagun - Poling
BetterPhoto Member Since: 8/11/2003
 

Congrats!!! Love this image as well as your others... I look forward to seeing them!


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1/16/2004 10:52:53 AM

 
Sharon E. Lowe
BetterPhoto Member Since: 8/7/2002
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Congrats on 2nd place Jean! Your hard work paid off!!


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1/16/2004 10:54:52 AM

 
Kathleen Clemons
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/19/2000
 

Congrats on your win, Jean! :)


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1/16/2004 10:56:45 AM

 
Ellen Peach
BetterPhoto Member Since: 5/30/2002
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Congrats on 2nd place, Jean*~*


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1/16/2004 11:08:18 AM

 
Carolyn  M. Fletcher
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/6/2001
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I knew this would be a winner!! Thought it would be first though! Congrats!!


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1/16/2004 11:16:21 AM

 
Murry Grigsby
BetterPhoto Member Since: 8/12/2002
 

Congrats on your win Jean! I think you get the award for best series of the month hands down also :0)


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1/16/2004 11:21:56 AM

 
Wilson H. Valentin  

Congratulations!!!! very nice image!


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1/16/2004 11:28:11 AM

 
Roger Barlow  

A great capture of the cat, and a good job in Photoshop. not to take anything from you, but this just goes to show that you don't need to be an expert photographer anymore. You only need the time to learn photoshop to be considered a great photographer. Call me a traditionalist...


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1/16/2004 11:33:00 AM

 
Gerda Grice
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/1/2001
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Excellent work, Jean, both in the shooting and the post processing! Many congratulations on your win!


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1/16/2004 11:42:44 AM

 
Susan T. Parady
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/16/2003
 

Congrats on your win, Jean!


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1/16/2004 11:50:52 AM

 
Mette Vendelboe Allison  

Such a bold picture composition, Jean! Great work! Congrats on your 2nd place!


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1/16/2004 12:20:42 PM

 
Peggy Wolff
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/26/2003
 

Congrats on your win Jean, this one really stands out. You did a wonderful job capturing a cats essence!


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1/16/2004 12:31:33 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Lee Ann, Sharon, Kathleen, Ellen, Carolyn, Murry, Wilson, Roger, Gerda, Susan and Mette - I'm thrilled to be here, and of those of mine that did make finalist, this was my favorite so that is an extra special treat. Carolyn, I am on cloud nine beacause of your generous comment; however, the first place winner would have been my pick as well... someday maybe. And, Roger, I haven't yet learned photoshop very well, due to time constraints, nor do I or anyone consider me to be a great photographer, but hey ya got start with fingerpainting before you get to watercolors so I'll keep plugging away. I understand your disapproval over the non-pure digitalization, but I think it takes a certain eye and creativity to get a decent end result digitally just as it does to take the perfect unretouched image from the get go. I argue with a good friend frequently who hates most of my fake backgrounds, etc., so I'm used to hearing opinions similar to yours and respect them! And, Murry, one of my first bp online friends, thanks always for your kind remarks! You've made my day! :-)


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1/16/2004 12:34:15 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Margaret! :-)


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1/16/2004 12:36:31 PM

 
William C. Raco
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/4/2003
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It's a great image regardless of how it made it to my monitor, Jean.
Congratulations,

bill


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1/16/2004 1:15:54 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Hahahaha, thanks, Bill! :-)


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1/16/2004 1:17:29 PM

 
Roger Barlow  

Like I said, it's a great capture of the cat. My only point was that, due to the enhancements, it's less of a photograph and more of a digital image/animation, and an award worthy one at that! There should be seperate categories or something. Regardless, great job, Jean.


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1/16/2004 1:21:16 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Roger! :-)


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1/16/2004 1:23:41 PM

 
Stan J. Contrades
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/17/2003
 

I don't care how you did it, it's the end result that shows up on my monitor that counts. You also can't tell me that it didn't take a thought process, then planning, and a whole lot of patience if nothing else!, to come up with the final image. I don't know of too many animals (humans included!) that take well to photo directions. So, my last question is, when are you conducting classes? (LOL!) Bravo on your win, Jean, and keep up the great work. I can hardly wait to see what you will tackle next :-)
Aloha from Kaua'i,
Stan


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1/16/2004 1:27:58 PM

 
Susan T. Evans
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/16/2003
 

Congrats Jean on your second place win, your cat shot are all winners to me!!! they are great!


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1/16/2004 1:28:11 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Stan and Susan, for your sweet thoughts! Stan, for a while, as I am pretty much home-bound taking care of my mother, my photography will fall into a fairly narrow range of what I can do around the house here. Will try to make it interesting, though! (one way or another, haha)


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1/16/2004 1:47:18 PM

 
Stan J. Contrades
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/17/2003
 

I am sure whatever you do will be interesting, Jean, and the best to you and your Mother. I have a 90-year young Mother and she can be a handful at times, but we enjoy every minute of her. Take care and the best again to you!
Much Aloha,
Stan


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1/16/2004 1:50:20 PM

 
Claudia Kuhn
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/14/2003
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Congratulations Jean on your well deserved win!


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1/16/2004 1:51:44 PM

 
Terry  R. Hatfield
BetterPhoto Member Since: 1/4/2003
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Great Jean Nice Image And Congrats on Your Win!!


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1/16/2004 2:18:25 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Claudia and Terry!


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1/16/2004 2:35:29 PM

 
Joy Brown
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/13/2001
enJOYphotography.com
 

Congratulations Jean, on this great second place win!


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1/16/2004 3:18:01 PM

 
Heather K. McFarland
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/28/2001
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This is wonderful Jean. Many congrats on your win!


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1/16/2004 3:49:46 PM

 
Gary L. Rohrbaugh
upperbayphoto.com
 

Congrats to you!


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1/16/2004 3:53:06 PM

 
Claudia Robinson  

way-to-go Jean...!! congrats on the win! well deserved!


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1/16/2004 6:12:22 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Joy, Heather, Gary and Claudia! Appreciate it! :-)


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1/16/2004 7:29:59 PM

 
Mary K. Robison
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/30/2003
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Wow, Jean, what a whirlwind of comments re: digital enhancement of photographs! I guess it's a matter of learning to accept the "New Age" (or Century, or something) version of images...they start inside that tiny box in the hand, then become, through the darkroom (whichever kind...) and the photographer's skill and imagination, something that catches the eye, and the breath...that said, CONGRATULATIONS, Jean!


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1/16/2004 8:18:35 PM

 
Evy Johansen
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/16/2002
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Many Congrats on your Second Place win, Jean! Very well derserved!!


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1/16/2004 8:22:06 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Whew, Mary, thanks! Your comments always amaze me - are you a writer by any chance? And, Evy, good morning to you and thanks so much!


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1/16/2004 8:29:39 PM

 
Jennifer Sena  

Congratulations, Jean!


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1/16/2004 8:33:37 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Jennifer :-)


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1/16/2004 8:36:59 PM

 
Thomas McConville  

great shot jean. exceelent exposure. I love the clean white studio type backgound and lighting. beautiful cat by the way.


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1/16/2004 8:57:10 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Thomas! :-)


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1/16/2004 9:05:59 PM

 
Roger Barlow  

Re: Mary R's "new age", I am not having trouble accepting anything. I just don't see photoshop and photography as the same thing. They are two beautiful and very different arts, one of which it is safe to say, Jean has mastered.


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1/16/2004 11:10:03 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Okay, I have tried hard to not get too deeply involved, but, Roger, I feel your comments are beyond making a statement about the merits of photoshop and photography and are basically being insulting towards me. If you don't like my photography per se, it would be far kinder for you to keep that to yourself or if you have constructive criticim or advice, then that is most welcome. This is a friendly site where people are genuinely interested in learning, trying new things, and helping one another without harsh criticism or back-handed compliments. You have made your point, now I would deeply appreciate it if you would stop criticizing me so I can continue to think that bp is the kind of place I want to share my photography with. You can take those issues up with bp staff, and by the way, Mary told me graciously and privately that she tends to be on your side of the fence, so you don't have to verbally spar with her either. Perhaps there should be a "purist" category where RAW images are submitted - no filters, no ps, no IR, nothing. But then, does each category have its "purist" counterpart, so there are now 10 categories? Maybe you can make these suggestions to the appropriate people, but please stop making comments that end up with making me feel like crap for having submitted this photo to the contest.


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1/17/2004 12:04:24 AM

 
Roger Barlow  

I have never criticzied you, and I certainly never claimed to dislike your photography, per se, or otherwise. In fact, each of my posts has pointed out my affection for your photo. I've also stated that it is a justifiably award winning effort. If you want to consider being called a master at what you do a backhanded compliment then there's nothing I can do about that. I made a point, perhaps it would have been better placed in one of the discussions rather than under your photo, but I saw another persons post on the topic, your rebuttle with the 'before' picture, and responded to it. Since the original posts, I have only responded to those who felt the need to respond to my post before congratulating you, and in an effort to keep this from straying from comments on your photo, to a debate over film vs. digi, I have included something to your favor in each post. As for your 10 categories, I think that would level the playing field and please most users, but until then we all have every right to enter whatever we want to, and you have the right to win when you enter images such as this one. If my posts made you feel like crap I apologize, but I don't see how they did, unless you were reading with the wring inflecion. Perhaps had I been wordier, we would have avoided this misunderstanding...you should be proud, and happy about your win. I was merely adding to a point made earlier, and responding to those responding to me. My best to you.


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1/17/2004 12:52:33 AM

 
Jean Papo
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Well, as I stated, I am very new to PS so I clearly having mastered that yet. I don't believe you were refering to my having mastered photography. Thus, it didn't seem like a very complimentary statement, not that I am owed compliments. I've always been in favor of discussions, though not when they feel like veiled put downs. Personally, I am not in favor of the 10 categories I proposed. To me, this IS the age of the digital darkroom, and my hats are off to those who have mastered it. (Should art in galleries be confined to one medium? Only oils? Only watercolors?) I think one purist category would be more than enough, if any, to please people like you who want to see unadulterated images. I like it just the way it is! Mix it up! Keep it interesting! (PS Would you have known my image was PS if I hadn't shown the before pic?) Unless the images submitted are RAW, how can the integrity of the photos be protected?
My best to you too! PS, if anyone else is listening in, my apologies. I would have responded directly to Roger but there was no link or email address to do so.


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1/17/2004 1:05:57 AM

 
Jean Papo
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Ooops, "haven't mastered" was the intended wording re: PS


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1/17/2004 1:07:39 AM

 
Bob Cammarata
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/17/2003
cammphoto.com
 

Many congrats Jean, and best wishes!!


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1/17/2004 5:15:59 AM

 
Stephen Zacker
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/6/2003
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Congrats on a well deserved win and image Jean!


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1/17/2004 6:01:43 AM

 
Patricia A. Kuniega
BetterPhoto Member Since: 5/17/2003
 

Your mastery of the lens speaks for itself. This photo only further displays your usual creativity and artistry. Congratulations on your fine win Jean!


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1/17/2004 7:00:05 AM

 
Murtaza H. Saeed
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/15/2003
 

Jean! This is Great!:) I love your cat photos and its always so great to see your name in the winning list! Plus your name's really cute!:) Papo. I know a Coco too!:) And then of course there's my Aunt, Koko!:) Keep up the great work Jean!:))


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1/17/2004 8:24:36 AM

 
Paul Coco
PaulCocoPhotography.com
 

Here is the Coco that Murtaza knows. Your comments in this thread, Jean, have me me proud that I am also willing to experiment and not a purist. You have eloquently explained your reasons for altering this marvelous image and your creativity in doing it shows. Keep up the fine work.


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1/17/2004 9:23:57 AM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks so much, Bob, Stephen, Patricia, Murtaza, and Paul! Appreciate you guys!
:-)Papo


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1/17/2004 10:40:58 AM

 
Theresa Marie Jones
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/11/2003
photographybytheresamariejones.com
 

Jean,I love your artistic approach. You have developed your own personal style. Uniquely done, keep up the good work. Congradulatons to your cat too!! A beautiful gorgeous neck, thanks for capturing it.


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1/17/2004 11:30:01 AM

 
Colette M. Metcalf
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/29/2003
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Congrats to you, Jean!!!


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1/17/2004 1:01:38 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Theresa, and Colette!
:-)


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1/17/2004 1:06:58 PM

 
James Cooper  

Jean - Keep doin' what you're doin' because you're winning awards doin' it...CONGRATS and good luck!

Roger- Don't pull me into this, dude. I agree with the traditionlist attitude, but there's a time and place.

Rock on with your bad self Jean. I look forward to seeing your future entires.


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1/17/2004 2:02:49 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, J.C.!


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1/17/2004 2:58:53 PM

 
Tim Chong  

My input: I have no problem with digital manipulations as long as it is within reasonable limits.

All Jean did was simply take out the distracting elements. The other main elements were already there to work with, and that shows Jean's exceptional talents to photograph cats. It's introducing something that wasn't original recorded -- is what I have a problem with.

WELL DONE, Jean.

Tim Chong


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1/17/2004 5:30:23 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thank you, Tim! (we won't count the mouse substitution ;-)


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1/17/2004 6:27:17 PM

 
Randy Walton  

This is really cool! Outstanding capture Jean. Congratulations!
Randy


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1/18/2004 7:45:35 AM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks again, Randy! :-)


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1/18/2004 9:43:31 AM

 
Elizabeth A. Zibas
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/4/2002
 

Wow some really interesting comments here. That's cool when an image can invoke that type of response. Obviously it means the image is not just good looking but thought provoking as well. And, what a great image it is. I admire your work greatly Jean. I fully understand and realize how hard it is to work with animals. The unpredictability of them becomes well, almost predictable that once you have everything exactly the way you have envisioned it, the animal will walk off, lay down, chew on the prop....I could go on and on. I appreciate your dedication and patience to get the image just right.

I particularly like this image in high key as it highlights the cat's pose which reminds me of the larger cats. I love the composition too--simplicity at its very best.

Absolutely wonderfully done, Jean. I enjoy your work and am inspired by it. Congratulations.


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1/18/2004 4:45:32 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thank you so much for your taking the time to share your thoughts and most kind words, Betsy! You're right on about working with animals...I even bought a clicker and a book on cat training, LOL, thinking maybe they could be taught to do what I want! Of course the book is gathering dust while I am gathering lots of outtakes, haha! Love your work, and believe that your "Wall Crawl" and my "Budget Exterminator" belong in the same book on animals and walls! Thanks, again!


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1/18/2004 5:02:29 PM

 
Elizabeth A. Zibas
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/4/2002
 

A book on cat training. I don't know who is laughing harder me or my cat, Tyson (probably Tyson). Actually, I think it can be done (but again Tyson begs to differ). I used to live in Vegas and I once went to this animal show that was done entirely with domestic cats. It was amazing, they were walking on tight ropes, pushing each other in baby strollers, jumping rope etc... The man said he adopted each and every one from the local shelter and trained them all. Heck, my cat can't even get along with one let alone a whole stage full of them;O)

I'll going to check out "Budget Exterminator" now.


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1/18/2004 7:42:53 PM

 
Tim Chong  

Oh it can be done... clicker training cats, that is. Hopefully, the book you purchased is a Karen Pryor book who coined it 'clicker training' (which really is operant conditioning btw). Heck, even clicker training chickens is possible!

I'm a HUGE clicker devotee. E-mail me privately at honorerdieu@earthlink.net if you'd like more info, Jean.


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1/19/2004 11:17:35 AM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Tim! I just emailed you!


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1/19/2004 12:14:29 PM

 
Paula Lechten  

I couldn't resist adding my two cents. I know photographers in local clubs who are incredibly caught up in following in the tripod marks of other great landscape masters. It is a wonderful experience but, really, how many sunset shots can one photograph before the genre becomes very trite. The computer gives us on opportunity for new expression without forgetting the lessons and beauty of the old.
Keep following your vision.


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1/19/2004 12:28:27 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Paula, I appreciate the follow your vision sentiment! (Truth be told, I'd love to be able to photograph WELL landscapes, sunsets, seascapes, etc...seeing the creativity and artistry in the stunning work in those genres posted on bp has opened up a whole new world of todo's on my list...just not enough time to pursue everything right now.)I appreciate your kind comments!


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1/19/2004 12:38:08 PM

 
Barbara K. 
BetterPhoto Member Since: 1/10/2003
 

Oh Jean what a talented pet photographer you are! I so admire your work. Congrats!


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1/19/2004 8:44:39 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thank you, Barbara, and thanks for your help with studio questions! :-)


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1/19/2004 8:48:46 PM

 
Paula Lechten  

You are correct, Jean. There are some exquisite landscapes and seascapes on BP and many beautiful places to visit. I was just trying to give credence to the advant garde out there exploring the new genre. I have seem them described very recently in a local club as "messing up a photo".
You have a flare for capturing feline movement.


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1/20/2004 5:44:17 AM

 
Jean Papo
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Thank you, Barbara! I love to mess up a good (or bad) photo ;-) I really appreciate your comment about feline movement, as that has been a personal goal of mine....to depict the beauty and forms of cat(s) in motion! :-)


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1/20/2004 10:25:58 AM

 
Lisa Deaton
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/26/2003
 

Hi Jean, Just looking at your gallery. You have quite a way with cats. You really could publish a calendar. Congrats on the win and I look forward to seeing the new photos you display. Lisa D


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1/23/2004 8:25:04 AM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Lisa!


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1/23/2004 9:34:07 AM

 
Gary Minish
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/8/2002
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Very cute shot and very well done, Jean, I love it! Thanks for sharing the original and the process also. It makes me appreciate the resulting image even more :-) Congrats and good luck in the future!


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1/24/2004 1:34:18 AM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Gary!


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1/24/2004 1:44:43 AM

 
Bob Jones
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/20/2003
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Well Jean as a former breeder of Abyssinians I was drawn to this image. A super cat study ... many congratulations on your win ...


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2/4/2004 12:41:21 AM

 
Jean Papo
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Too COOL, Bob! I love aby's, and hope they feel somewhat the same. Where/when did you breed? What colors? Love to hear more! (I have 2 pet ruddies, and am getting my first little showgirl-to-be blue aby in less than a month. Can't wait!)


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2/4/2004 12:48:07 AM

 
Mike Hollman
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/27/2000
 

Great work Jean! You have some wonderful images in your gallery.

Best wishes,

Mike.


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2/20/2004 7:33:30 PM

 
Jean Papo
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Thanks, Mike! :-)


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2/20/2004 9:56:55 PM

 
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