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Category: New Questions

Photography Question 
Jessica Jenney
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/2/2005
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Man Made category


I see the "Catch-all" category has been replaced with "Man Made". I see many images that are not man made just to let you know.


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3/18/2014 3:23:46 PM

 
Carolyn  M. Fletcher
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/6/2001
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  HELLO BP!! Shouldn't you let us know when you are changing a category? When was this effective? Next month's contest, I have to assume. What does this mean?? Wouldn't man made apply to some of the same stuff that goes in EOD, or what about DD? I know I'm baffled. Please let us know!!


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3/18/2014 3:55:33 PM

 
Jeana Clark
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/11/2006
  Holy Cow!!!
Yet another change!
I just noticed! Sheesh!
I have also seen things that are obviously NOT man-made. I guess I've missed the memo regarding this change!
I might have entered differently had I known this was going to take place.
Perhaps BP should just put the catch-all category back, and ADD this as a new category.....I dunno!

Signed,
Flabbergasted & Frustrated !!


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3/18/2014 7:24:53 PM

 
Ken Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/11/2005
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  Highlighted Comment: I think we need to see how this pans out. I've already put several photos into the "Catch All" category, and when I check my Contest Entries, they're still listed as "Catch All." And there are tons of Catch All photos that aren't applicable for Man-Made category.

This could be a simple mistake, or perhaps meant for next month. If BP does make the change from Catch All to Man Made, I hope they make it effective next month, and put out some guidance on what this category is...or isn't. Otherwise, half of the contest submissions will be mis-categorized.


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3/18/2014 8:03:33 PM

 
Martha R. Mazon
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/6/2008
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  Here's the current definition of "Catch-All". "Man-made" seems to apply to the first type ("transportation") only, leaving the rest without a home. I can see that they might want to refine if the category were overrun, but it actually has fewer entries than N&L.

Plus while I've used the term myself on a recent image, I do object to the term MAN-made. :)

Catch-All
This is the place for any image that doesn't fit into one of the other nine categories. Examples include still-life, motion-blur, black and white. If you have an photo that you love (that doesn't seem to fit into the other categories), enter it into this category. Please do not put photos into this category that could fit into another category. This category is for:
Transportation - trains, planes, cars, etc.
Motion blur and long-exposure zoomed images
Painting with light
Black and white images.
Still-life
Bokeh and other special effects


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3/18/2014 8:19:57 PM

 
Usman M. Bajwa
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/11/2006
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  Thanks Jessica for letting us all know. You keep a close eye on the contest mecanics:)

Sure would have loved had BP informed us on the change of name with some specific details as to what kind of images are suitable in this new category. I would say a lot of architecture and transportation images would fall under this.

Looking forward to Team BP's elaboration/explanation on this new category.

UB.


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3/19/2014 12:12:46 AM

 
Kara L. Hendricks
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/18/2004
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  I hope they add Catch All back, because frankly, most of what I shoot only fits in this category... Where are tabletop/still life shots suppose to go now? This seems like a weird choice for a category... I don't shoot in b/w but I have always thought that would make a great one...


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3/19/2014 4:59:33 AM

 
Nikki McDonald
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/6/2006
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  LOLOL I was just thinking the other day in connection with another competition what a good idea it was when BP switched, years ago, to Catch-All as a final category since it broadened rather than narrowing.

I'm with others who say there are many subjects that will now be left without a home. If the problem is people putting a flower or a bird picture, for example, in C-A rather than Flowers or Animals, it can be solved much more simply. Just don't give it an EP or, if you do because you really don't pay that much attention to category on the first round (quite acceptable, IMO), make sure it does not go on.


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3/19/2014 6:29:33 AM

 
Monnie Ryan
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/25/2008
  Martha, I'm with you - MAN-made doesn't cut it for me, either. Last time I checked I wasn't one, so guess I won't be using that category any more!


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3/19/2014 6:30:39 AM

 
Kay Beausoleil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 5/31/2004
KayBeausoleilPhotography.com
  Yes indeed, we really need BP's definition of what the new category means and a list of which types of photography are no longer welcome (see Kara's post). Do they mean what other sites call Digital Art (in camera or by PP)? Architecture? A bird on a telephone pole? A flower garden? Anything human? All require the intervention of "Man". For that matter, what if the subject was made by ((shudder)) a Woman?

And I agree with Martha: you'd think by 2014 it'd be routine to use inclusionary vocabulary. Why an insensitive title which ignores over half the membership even if that wasn't the intent? Since only BP knows what the category includes, it's pointless to suggest alternatives until they share that information with us.

Finally, what the heck was wrong with "Catch All"?


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3/19/2014 6:42:39 AM

 
Jeana Clark
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/11/2006
 
Perhaps their intention is/was to
INCLUDE a category of Man Made
and not take Catch All away at all....maybe it's just a glitch.


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3/19/2014 7:07:55 AM

 
Natasha Pliss
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/17/2010
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  To me it sounds like a great title for the Monthly Theme category. Man Made - infinite choice of images. I think its just a simple mistake. And, by the way, everywhere else on the website there is still Catch All category. But until this issue is cleared I won't put anything into Catch All. Too bad. I did not submit anything yesterday because of that.


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3/19/2014 7:14:57 AM

 
Mitch Spence
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/16/2004
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  Must be a mistake. Yes, sounds as though it's really meant as a theme? Makes absolutely no sense as a category. And, of course, not "man" made but "human" made is the obvious term that reflects reality.


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3/19/2014 10:21:04 AM

 
Robert K. Bemus
BetterPhoto Member Since: 1/16/2005
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  Maybe it is a mistake and 'Man Made' is supposed to be a future monthly theme. This month's theme was 'Creativity' but has reverted back to February's theme, 'Wild Color'.


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3/19/2014 12:17:12 PM

 
Jim Miotke
BetterPhoto Member
BetterPhotoJim.com
Owner, BetterPhoto.com, Inc.
  Hello awesome friends,

Man-made will be the new category starting in April, replacing Catch-all. It will be:

* Architecture
* Transportation (planes, trains and automobiles)
* Industry

Still-life photography should go into Details & Macro. Motion blur will likely go into Elements of Design.

Don't worry about this change for the rest of February. And if you enter awesome pictures of architecture, industry, and transportation... that will be cool too. The judges will be flexible for this month.

We have so many improvements happening... I can't tell you how excited I am.

If there is dust from all the construction work, please excuse and forgive.

It's been a long time since we updated BetterPhoto to this extent.

Since it's BetterPhoto's 18th birthday next week, it's a great time for improvements.

Thanks,
Jim

P.S. Yes, the theme is "Creativity" (I've just fixed that bug).

And let me say, I've peeked at what is coming in and it's awesome.

More details as soon as I can...


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3/19/2014 4:08:44 PM

 
Gregory LaGrange
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/11/2003
gregorylagrange.org
  "A bird on a telephone pole? A flower garden? Anything human? All require the intervention of "Man". For that matter, what if the subject was made by ((shudder)) a Woman?"

The poles would be crooked.


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3/19/2014 5:03:00 PM

 
Usman M. Bajwa
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/11/2006
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  Highlighted Comment: Thanks Jim for your information/clarification on the new category.

Its great to know that BP is going to be 18 next week!!! WOW. I have been associated with it regularly since the last 5-6 years and have loved every second of it. Wishing BP and BPers many more years of success and growth and fun and learning.

UB.


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3/19/2014 7:56:15 PM

 
Jim Miotke
BetterPhoto Member
BetterPhotoJim.com
Owner, BetterPhoto.com, Inc.
  Thank you so much, Usman!

And thanks, Gregory:

A) You're funny!

B) I realized as I was driving away after posting that previous comment that I forgot to mention:

This doesn't mean that you Nature & Landscape photos can't have any sign of humans in them. The other categories can of course have man-made stuff. It's just an umbrella term for those very popular subjects of architecture, transportation, industry.

It's all about what is the primary value of the photo. The main concept or core essence. Bird on a pole... it's about the animal. Flower garden... it's about the flowers, even if a person made it.

And we're using "man" in the universal sense meaning man and woman...

...but children would still go in the people category (if that is the primary subject of the photo).

:)

Thanks,
Jim


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3/20/2014 7:09:44 AM

 
Kay Beausoleil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 5/31/2004
KayBeausoleilPhotography.com
  :( Jim, to you, "Man" may be universal, but in the 21st century "Man" feels exclusionary for many of us. You're celebrating BP's 18th birthday in what to me (and probably some others) is an unfortunately negative way even if that's not your personal perception.

You used "Industry" in your list, which would also cover "Architecture" and "Transportation". So why not use it instead?

Then again, there's always Catch-All ...


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3/20/2014 9:06:46 AM

 
Monnie Ryan
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/25/2008
  Kay, I was of those "rabble-rousers" who worked hard to rid the planet of exclusionary language like this way back in the '60s, and happily, most of it (at least from public organizations, businesses and such) has gone by the boards. Truly sorry to see it here.


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3/20/2014 9:48:18 AM

 
Mitch Spence
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/16/2004
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  Yes, I would agree with Kay in all regards here, Jim. And Monnie as well. The use of "man-made" is exclusionary and inappropriate. The change to this category, and the dumping of Catch-All, and, really, your explanation of where things would go, all simply do not make any sense to me at all no matter how I might try to twist them in my mind to make them somehow seem reasonable. I cannot fathom what the reason for such an incredibly strange category change would be, from anyone's point of view, BP's or ours. WHY???


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3/20/2014 9:55:47 AM

 
Gregory LaGrange
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/11/2003
gregorylagrange.org
  Ahh, the imperative of the perpetual victim. Human has hu MAN in it. Can't say that.


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3/20/2014 4:37:23 PM

 
Cindy Bendush
BetterPhoto Member Since: 1/16/2007
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  Mitch couldn't have spoken my ideas any better! A tiny flower should still be able to go into macro. Why? BECAUSE THEY DON'T WIN IN FLOWERS! Yet, still life is now supposed to go into macro? So how is macro going to defined now that larger things are to go in this category??? Jim - I mean no disrespect but this is one of the most incomprehensible decisions I've seen yet and makes no sense at all to me or to anyone I've talked to.


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3/20/2014 9:18:18 PM

 
Usman M. Bajwa
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/11/2006
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  LOL, you are too much, Gregory! On a lighter note, I see a Man in WoMAN too. Check this out, someone listed all the English words in the lexicon which had man somewhere inside it including roMANtic !!!

http://www.morewords.com/contains/man/

By the way, I agree with what Mitch said above, I also fail to understand the need to take away Catch-All category and replace it with a new category which caters to just some of the subject content covered by the new category, whatever we may finally call it? What will this intends to accomplish?

UB.


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3/20/2014 9:18:44 PM

 
Natasha Pliss
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/17/2010
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  It was so nice and easy. Now I am getting more and more confused about this change(not a good feeling): Where do the Black and White images go? They used to belong in the Catch-All category. I have a couple of B&W floral macro photos.Where should I submit them? May be in the Elements of Design? Would it be a good idea to have a B&W category as well? At least this would eliminate some confusion


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3/21/2014 8:07:36 AM

 
Nikki McDonald
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/6/2006
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  I have always put black and white images in whatever category suited their subject and they have done just fine: black and white flowers in Flowers; black and white animals in Animals. etc. I would not mind a separate bw category BUT I would NOT want that to mean a black and white of a person could not be put into People if I felt it was more competitive there.

I still want to cast a vote for no change.


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3/21/2014 8:31:04 AM

 
Carolyn  M. Fletcher
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/6/2001
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  Amen to all the above. I agree with the no change idea.


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3/21/2014 9:41:18 AM

 
Carol Quina
BetterPhoto Member Since: 1/26/2012
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  In the new categories, where do action/sports fit?


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3/21/2014 10:01:46 AM

 
Ken Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/11/2005
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  Jim, I agree with everyone too; let's keep Catch All. It's been one of your more popular categories over the years. And it keeps it simple for people who aren't sure what category to choose. No anguish on where to place their photos.

Perhaps "Man-Made" could be the next Monthly Theme and you can reevaluate based on the interest the theme may generate.


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3/21/2014 10:20:03 AM

 
Michele Peterson
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/2/2010
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  I'd like to add my vote to keep "Catch-All" as a category as well. Man-Made can be a wonderful separate category that would be great to have. Or a monthly theme. But please don't replace Catch-all!


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3/21/2014 10:53:14 AM

 
Tammy M. Anderson
BetterPhoto Member Since: 8/13/2007
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  I also vote for keeping the Catch-All category. If its not broken don't fix it.


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3/21/2014 12:58:13 PM

 
Peggy Pfister
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/2/2011
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  So where do abstracts go now?


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3/21/2014 2:16:45 PM

 
Jim Miotke
BetterPhoto Member
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Owner, BetterPhoto.com, Inc.
  I hear you and I'm going to stick with the new category definition. Yes, some people may like how Catch-all can be a place to put a photo when you're not sure how it goes. But the sad truth is that too many photos the judges see in Catch-all clearly belong in another category such as People or Nature/Landscapes.

To answer your questions:

Abstracts go into Elements of Design.

B&W go into Digital Darkroom (since 99% of us or more do our Black and White in software rather than by using film). Same thing with Infrared.

Bokeh will also go into Elements of Design.

Thank you,
Jim


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3/21/2014 2:36:38 PM

 
Nikki McDonald
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/6/2006
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  Thanks you very much and very sincerely for the input, Jim. I can only say that I hope that the "judges" will also expand their parameters. Many nature shots are not flashy, wide-angle landscapes or seascapes. Are they now going to stand a chance in N&L? I would love that :) And many floral images are not tight, fill-the-frame, close-ups of flowers. Will they now be given serious consideration in Flowers? That would be way cool as they say. As for b&w in Digital Darkroom, it's long been my feeling that if the digital work isn't in-your-face, an entry hardly has a chance there. Will this change, too? And are you saying that all black and white images must go in DD? What about sepia toned images - are they now unwelcome in other categories? Or what if the tones of choice are blue?

I don't want or mean to sound contentious, but if an image is, in the judges' opinion, mis-categorized, it's their prerogative to pass it by. Simple as that. Got an animal ion People? Skip it. There's no need to juggle the categories in what I am quite sure will be a vain attempt to simplify things for the judges while, at the same time, complicating them for the entrants.


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3/21/2014 2:59:15 PM

 
Cindy Bendush
BetterPhoto Member Since: 1/16/2007
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  Amen Nikki! And Jim - if you are still reading this be aware that a lot of the changes being recently made here have driven good, competitive photographers away. I can't imagine that that is your goal. If it is your aim to restore BP to its former prestige, you might want to consider what we are all saying because we are the voice of those who financially support BP and the voice of those potential new BP'ers who may think the contest definitions are too confusing. They will move on just as many have already done.

I think most of BP would agree that an improperly entered image should just be skipped. Simple. No confusion. We want simplicity in our photos for maximum impact. Seems logical to me that that might be a good idea for business policy too.

I challenge you to send out a survey. You may or may not be surprised at he results, but acting on the consensus of the results just might prove to be a wise business move.

Thanks for listening.


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3/21/2014 4:20:01 PM

 
Gregory LaGrange
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/11/2003
gregorylagrange.org
  Usman, check out this out. You might find it interesting

http://therationalmale.com/2013/05/06/remove-the-man/

Once the panic goes away people will see that it's not going to be such a hard thing. Like all the other times. Nobody's ended up in the hospital yet.
Sepia or periwinkle toned it's still a duo toned picture. Same as black and white. That's not confusing. A portrait can be done to fit into a monthly theme. There's always been an amount of flexibility in choosing a category.


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3/21/2014 4:32:08 PM

 
Carol Quina
BetterPhoto Member Since: 1/26/2012
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  Again, where would sports/action fit?


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3/21/2014 5:06:01 PM

 
Carolyn  M. Fletcher
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/6/2001
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PickYourShots.com
  People?


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3/21/2014 5:08:54 PM

 
Bob Cournoyer
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/9/2003
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  Gregory....were you born with a level on your head? :-)


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3/21/2014 6:47:03 PM

 
Brenda Sides
BetterPhoto Member Since: 8/30/2004
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  I always use the alternate image uploader, and when I tried to submit the image to the Man-Made category, it wasn't listed in the drop down box. However, it did still show the Catch-All category. I'm waiting for this to get straightened out.


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3/22/2014 7:17:57 AM

 
Jessica Jenney
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/2/2005
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  Brenda, As Jim wrote above the Man Made category will begin in April and then the drop down box will reflect that.


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3/22/2014 7:01:07 PM

 
Brenda Sides
BetterPhoto Member Since: 8/30/2004
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  Thanks, Jessica.


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3/22/2014 10:40:38 PM

 
Martha R. Mazon
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/6/2008
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  A still-life which includes, for instance, china and silverware, sounds like it would fit in a category called "Man-Made".

But Jim, above, defined the new category as for:

* Architecture
* Transportation (planes, trains and automobiles)
* Industry

A clearer category name would help encourage the desired usage. I like Kay's idea of "Industry"; I would suggest further refining it to "Industry and Architecture".

Also if the usage of "Digital Darkroom" is changing, what about calling it "Special Effects" to include other techniques like motion blur and bokeh?


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3/23/2014 8:56:23 AM

 
Ken Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/11/2005
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  Martha, when I first joined BP in 2005, they had Special Effects category. It included things like motion-blur, nighttime photography, IR (and I'm referring to true IR, versus using software IR filters), etc. Basically, in-camera effects versus those created via digital effects. Then in Nov 2007, BP changed "Special Effects" to "Catch All."

I remember seeing a description of the 10 categories. I thought it was on the Contest page; e.g., "About our contest Categories", but didn't see it.

But even then, it's still subjective and we just need to give it our best shot when we categorize our contest photos. And have fun with it.


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3/23/2014 9:32:40 AM

 
Martha R. Mazon
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/6/2008
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  Is this the description you were looking for, Ken?

http://www.betterphoto.com/contest/categories.asp

I'm not sure if many people know about this list, or if they have studied it thoroughly. That's why I think the category name itself should be as explicit as possible.


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3/23/2014 9:43:49 AM

 
Ken Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/11/2005
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  Yes, that's the one. Where on the Contest page did you find it?


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3/23/2014 11:33:17 AM

 
Martha R. Mazon
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/6/2008
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  The only way I'm ever able to find it is to search on "contest categories" which leads to the forum question to which I posted this link, some time back. I can't remember how I found it originally.


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3/23/2014 11:34:56 AM

 
Ken Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/11/2005
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  Thanks, Martha. Hopefully BP can post something like this on the main contest page, when they start the new category.


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3/23/2014 12:03:20 PM

 
Gregory LaGrange
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/11/2003
gregorylagrange.org
  Right bleow where Jim says what goes in "Man Made" he says where your still life of silverware goes. Details and macro.


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3/23/2014 1:24:43 PM

 
Martha R. Mazon
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/6/2008
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  Yes Gregory. That's what I refer to above. My point is that not every member examines every forum thread in detail. The contest category name itself should clearly describe what topics the judges expect it to contain. The "Contest Categories" page clearly describes what kind of photos belong in "Catch-All", too, but according to Jim, the judges are bothered and confused by the fact that these guidelines are not being followed. To me, "Man-Made" is almost as vague as "Catch-All".


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3/23/2014 2:03:41 PM

 
Gregory LaGrange
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/11/2003
gregorylagrange.org
  What's missing is on the page with the drop down menus, under the "contest" header there should be either a link that drops down for categories, or make it part of the guidelines page. That seems like it would be a routine thing.
However, you can't hold every hand if as Jim described that they were seeing far too many photos in a Catch All category that were clear to them belonged in another. I don't think the judges were confused, just seeing too many in the wrong place. If there's a person that has a macro of a flower and can't decide to put it in the flower category, then you'll have people who will have a fashion portrait and will be stymied by not being able to make a decision if industry includes the fashion industry, or is it just smokestacks and steel.
There's a small ice covered tree branch in Elements of design. I say it should be in nature. If that person made the choice based on the lines the branches make, more power to them. If there was some confusion, I don't think you can make it any clearer outside of telling them directly.


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3/23/2014 3:50:34 PM

 
Jill Odice
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2005
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  How about:
1. Plants
2. Animals
3. People
4. Black and White
5. Bug and Butterflies
6. Landscapes with No People
7. Architecture
8. Macro
9. Cityscapes
10. Elements of Design
11. Catch All


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3/23/2014 7:14:39 PM

 
Usman M. Bajwa
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/11/2006
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  I find this information also very helpful and informative for the contest.

http://www.betterphoto.com/contest/guidelines.asp

UB.


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3/23/2014 10:31:49 PM

 
Tiia Vissak
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/1/2007
  Maybe we don't need categories at all and BP could just give 1 grand prize, 10 1st place and 100 2nd place badges? It's not possible to explain all possibilities under categories, anyway, thus, people will still keep asking if a photo of a bug on a rose in a vase should go to animals, flowers, details & macro or elsewhere. Catch-all sounded universal for whatever kinds of photos, but now, if this category will be changed, confusion will only increase.


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3/24/2014 1:22:59 AM

 
Jill Odice
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2005
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  I agree with Tiia :-) There are so many times when I just cannot decide where to put my images and now that we are not supposed to resubmit them it makes it tougher. In the past if I put something in one category and it did not get an EP I would put it in a different category at a later date. Usually it would get an EP sooner or later :-) I agree with what Nikki said earlier also. Sometimes I have an image that for example is a macro flower that I turned into a black and white, do I put in under flowers which has lots more entries,macro and detail, or DD because I made it B/W? If there were no categories images would be judged on their worthiness...The only other thing would be the monthly or weekly theme...? Just my 2 cents worth ...


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3/24/2014 8:46:04 AM

 
Nikki McDonald
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/6/2006
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  Not that anything we say will affect the final decision, but just thinking about the flip side of "no categories" . . . One thing a flower category (for example) does is assure a nice number of floral themed Finalists and Winners - even if the judge(s) don't happen to like flowers at all.


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3/24/2014 8:51:42 AM

 
Mitch Spence
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/16/2004
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  Although I also don't think anything we say will make any difference at all in what's eventually done, I do want to make a point about black and white. I believe BP is suggesting that because we use software to convert to B&W, this somehow makes those images digital-darkroom-category appropriate, just because of the conversion. However, I feel, as Nikki has mentioned, that black and white images should go in whatever category their subject indicates is right, not the fact that they're monotone. The fact that software is used for the conversion doesn't really have to do with a digital-darkroom category; after all, software in the digital-photography age is used for absolutely everything, including taking the picture originally with the camera's software.


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3/24/2014 9:46:22 AM

 
Jim Miotke
BetterPhoto Member
BetterPhotoJim.com
Owner, BetterPhoto.com, Inc.
  Good discussion, everyone. I'll take these ideas into consideration.


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3/24/2014 10:18:28 AM

 
Peggy Pfister
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/2/2011
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  Thanks for watching the discussion and keeping an open mind, Jim.

I had been thinking about something Jill mentioned ... resubs. I understand the reasoning behind discouraging resubs, but with categories changing, and increased scrutiny of whether the image was submitted in the correct category (which is confusing), it seems fair to allow participants to resub the image in another category. Not sure how BP could police that (of course, I'm not sure if/how it is currently policed), but again, it seems fair to allow at least limited resubs in another category.
Just my thoughts. Thanks for considering all of our opinions.


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3/24/2014 10:48:22 AM

 
Gregory LaGrange
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/11/2003
gregorylagrange.org
  "It's not possible to explain all possibilities under categories..."

Yeah, they call that freedom. Run to it.


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3/24/2014 10:52:09 AM

 
Gregory LaGrange
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/11/2003
gregorylagrange.org
  Since digital is new enough that most people have used a hour lab in their picture taking lives, I can understand where Jim would say put all black and white in Digital Darkroom. Anybody who did black and white before, good chance they had a darkroom while everybody else had a machine cranking out color pictures.
So I can see how he relates that to converting what comes out color in a digital camera to digital darkroom. But I do agree that the subject has as much weight as a color picture when a person makes their category choice. Not everything works as a black and white, just from converting it.


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3/24/2014 11:23:49 AM

 
Kalena Randall
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/13/2011
  How about having another listing under each category so there will be fewer questions as to where things should go.

I like to review the submissions and I wonder quite often why something was placed where it was.

Oh, well.....things will sort out!


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3/26/2014 11:13:48 AM

 
Peter W. Marks
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/5/2006
  Some of you good folk make my depression feel better. Now as a Human-kind I can just ignore the sticky-outy-thingy I have in front and know that there are some fighting for every one of our rights. Let political correctness take over the whole world I say! :0) (thought I had better put the silly thing in as you might not recognize male-chauvanist sarcasm)


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3/26/2014 12:38:09 PM

 
Harriet Feagin
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/25/2011
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  I just noticed the change. I can understand having a Man Made category but I hardly think that a still life should be in details and macro. The old catch all was a great category. If it ain't broken, why fix it? I don't do many still life photos but I do have some that don't seem to fit anywhere so the Catch All was perfect for me. Oh well.... I only take the photos. What do I know?


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3/28/2014 8:08:45 PM

 
Jim Miotke
BetterPhoto Member
BetterPhotoJim.com
Owner, BetterPhoto.com, Inc.
  The decision has been made:

1) I'm going to keep the new category... "man-made" really means "person-made" and refers to transportation, architecture, industry, etc.

And 2...

(good news coming...)

(you're going to like this...)

(ok you're going to love this...)

Resubmits are allowed.


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3/31/2014 3:26:03 PM

 
Carolyn  M. Fletcher
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/6/2001
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  YAY! We need our resubmits..especially since some have been doing it anyway. Happy Happy Happy!


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3/31/2014 3:33:48 PM

 
Jim Miotke
BetterPhoto Member
BetterPhotoJim.com
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  I thought I noticed that ;)


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3/31/2014 3:35:46 PM

 
Peter W. Marks
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/5/2006
  It's my age folks; I don't think I will enter any more competitions. Too many changes for me to....um, 'person-age'.


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3/31/2014 4:34:40 PM

 
Ken Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/11/2005
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  Thanks, Jim on publicly saying that resubmits are now allowed. Contest judging is subjective and this will be a nice step "back to basics" for the contest.


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3/31/2014 4:42:38 PM

 
Peggy Pfister
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/2/2011
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  Terrific news about the resubs! Thanks, Jim!


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3/31/2014 5:22:52 PM

 
Harriet Feagin
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/25/2011
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  Some changes I like, some I don't and some I don't understand. I like the resubmit change but I don't understand the Man Made category replacing Catch All. Right now I can't think of a change I don't like so that's a good thing.


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3/31/2014 7:01:16 PM

 
Usman M. Bajwa
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/11/2006
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  Yay on allowing the resubs, Jim.

Is it possible to redo the page on the categories by listing subjects allowed under each one? This will be easier for all of the members and I am sure for the Judges too.

UB.


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3/31/2014 9:36:31 PM

 
Martha R. Mazon
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/6/2008
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  When I uploaded my image this morning (using the basic uploader), some of the category names included qualifiers indicating what belonged there. Nice!


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4/1/2014 6:39:29 AM

 
Nikki McDonald
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/6/2006
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  Planning out my April entries (yes, though I swap out if I get one I can't wait to upload sometime during the month, I mostly plan a month in advance). I cannot tell you how much I miss Catch-All. Argggggg


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4/1/2014 8:53:58 AM

 
Nikki McDonald
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/6/2006
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  And since I've already entered today, I can't see the drop-down menu. Can someone else notice when entering whether there is an Abstract/Graphics category? If so, does it replace Elements of Design? I just read through the descriptions under categories and stumbled on mention of this category which is new to me.


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4/1/2014 8:58:56 AM

 
Ken Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/11/2005
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  Nikki, I've already uploaded and going off of memory, but I think "Elements" was still there. Elements is still one of the categories on the "Recently Entered" contest page. I don't recall reading anything about Elements being renamed to Abstract/Graphics. Earlier in this thread, Jim M did say that abstracts could go into Elements category.


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4/1/2014 10:05:42 AM

 
Nikki McDonald
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/6/2006
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  Here's the link from My Member Center - How to Categorize
http://www.betterphoto.com/contest/categories.asp

Note that
-cityscapes is still under N&L but is also specifically listed under Man Made
-EoD is still listed and says "extreme digital creations do not belong in this category" which would preclude many of the distortion abstracts people create, imo
-DD is still there but says it is NOT for "Photos that have such a subtle application of photo-editing techniques that one cannot tell any post-processing work has been done which was my point earlier - if it's not in your face, it won't fly there
-D&M still sounds as if it's for very close-ups but
-Man Made is NOT for

a. Bokeh, Painting with light, and motion blur photos belong in the "Abstract/Graphics" category
b. Black and white, and partially-colored photos belong in the "Digital Darkroom" category
c. Still-life photos, if they don't fit into any other category, belong in the "Details" category

Very confusing to me. And leaving me quite unhappy with the category choices I have to make on some images.


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4/1/2014 10:21:39 AM

 
Nikki McDonald
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/6/2006
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  And I really want to know if they seriously think all black and white photos should go in DD. Since I love black and white and think it's quite possible for a bw image to compete on an equal footing with color images, I do think the subject should determine the category. Which would mean a bw building or train that was not EoD or Graphics would go in Man Made, not in DD.


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4/1/2014 12:09:13 PM

 
Harriet Feagin
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/25/2011
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  After reading your posts, Nikki, my first thought about black and white being in the Digital Darkroom category is, where would Ansel Adams put his photos if he was a member of BP? Infrared, yes. Black and white, no. I think we have gotten too complicated. Again, if it is not broken, why the fix?


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4/1/2014 12:46:36 PM

 
Jim Miotke
BetterPhoto Member
BetterPhotoJim.com
Owner, BetterPhoto.com, Inc.
  Harriet, it is broken from our perspective.

One note about black and white: as before, you can continue to enter them into ANY category. If it's an amazing photo of a person or an cat or a cityscape, feel free to enter it into the People, Animals, or Man-made categories.

OR you can enter it in Digital Darkroom, if you really zipped around Nik or Photoshop etc to create it.

Have fun.


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4/1/2014 5:00:15 PM

 
Harriet Feagin
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/25/2011
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  I can see where, as judges, it can be frustrating when photos are obviously in the wrong category. I can see where the
catch all could have gotten huge because it was an easy place if one could not decide. We will just have to do the best we can to put entries in the correct categories and hope for the best. Thanks for the clarification. I like the contest. First of all, it is free for members. Secondly, it is digital so no printing and framing and thirdly, it does help us improve. I have enjoyed the few years I have participated.


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4/1/2014 6:30:41 PM

 
Linda D. Lester
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/13/2004
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lindadlester.com
  Part of life these days! Changes!


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4/1/2014 6:56:38 PM

 
Nikki McDonald
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/6/2006
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  Thank you, especially for the clarification on the black and white images, Jim. That was a big question for me and I'm pleased to know they can go in any category.


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4/1/2014 7:22:34 PM

 
Usman M. Bajwa
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/11/2006
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  Yeah Linda, the only CONSTANT in life they say is CHANGE!!!

UB.


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4/1/2014 8:40:19 PM

 
Ujjwal Mukherjee
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/21/2001
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  I was keen to know the final word on the category choices for the Black and White images, great to know it remains as flexible as it was Thanks, Jim for the clarification!!


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4/1/2014 10:30:00 PM

 
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