 Allen Pearson |
Photo Software: What to Buy? I am trying to determine which software I should buy - Adobe Photoshop CS3 or Adobe Lightroom? I've read and heard different opinions and am relatively new to this field, so I am wondering which would be the best for a nature/wildlife Photographer. Thanks in advance for your opinions.
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John P. Sandstedt |
No one [photographic amateur or professional] "needs either of these applications. Frankly, there's no real reason to go beyond Photoshop ELelments 5.0 for 95-95 percent of the editing you need to do Moreover, and noting that you didn't identify what kind of camera you're using, if you should with a Canon DSLR, you have DPP which will let you work with RAW images and/or "Transfer to Photoshop" to work in Elements. Or, you can download the free plug-in, Adobe CAmera RAW. Either way - you don't NEED CS3 ot Lightroom. None of the above is to say that these programs are nice to have, containing some new cool ways to edit an image. But, I think Lightroom costs between $195 and $250; CS3 probably goes for no less than $550. So, if you NEED to spend your money, by all means consider these more expensive and somewhat more glorified programs. I have Elements 1.0 and 4.0, Photoshop 6.0 and CS2 loaded on my computer. I use each of these in different ways. I use Elements 1.0 because most of the members of my camera club have that program. So, I must address this in the workshops I lead. I use Elemnts 4.0 for any number of reasons; I now rarely use Photoshop 6.0 - opting for CS2. But, do I NEED all of these. It's a personal decision. CS2 would be my choice, obviously, if I could have only one application. Elements 4.0 doesn't have Curves of Channel Mixer.
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Todd Bennett |
Allen, You might want to take a look at Corel Paint Shop Pro Photo XI. It's less than $100 and, to me, is easier to use than PhotoShop. It has many of the same features as PS and for me is all I need. I have gotten very good results with it. This is just another option. John makes very good points about PS.
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Brooke M. Lewis |
Hi Allen. I am a big fan of Photoshop Elements 5. For most users, you will be able to do anything you want with this program and it is more user friendly than CS3. If I were you, I would buy Elements 5 and put the rest of the money into a new lens:)!
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Richard Lynch |
Allen, You've gotten some good advice here. I have Photoshop 3 through CS3 and Elements 1 through 5, and I work on them both on Mac and PC. I've been at this for a while and one key thing I hear from you is that you are "new to this field". That would almost certainly point you to getting Photoshop Elements. John makes most of the points. But I disagree about what is missing from Elements ... my books and tool sets for Elements were made to add the functionality that seems to be missing back into Elements ... find out more on my Elements Web site: http://hiddenelements.com. Elements will allow you to explore what Photoshop can do for you with image editing at a fraction of the cost and the savings is enough that you can do as Brooke said and get other meaningful equipment. You can also use it as a learning tool and introduction to Photoshop and move up when you are ready. There are other programs that can be helpful and powerful in their own right - such as Todd's suggestion of Paint Shop Pro. But you will find that the popularity of Photoshop and Elements provides its own benefits with lots of user support, forums, Q&A and other help. For example, I only teach courses on Photoshop because of the popularity of that program and branding ... it may be very difficult to find the depth of coverage with any other program - regardless of how good it is. I hope that helps!
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Diane Dupuis |
PSCS3 and Lightroom don't do exactly the same thing... Take a good look at their descriptions. Elements does do a whole lot (and probably more than most photographers would use), but CS3 does have some neat new tricks! I do like Lightroom for managing my file folders and making global changes to a group of pics.
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Richard Lynch |
What I would not do is get several packages and attempt to learn them all or share editing between. It will waste time and resources, where if you learn to use one properly, you can focus your efforts and keep the learning curve in check by not adding multiple programs to learn.
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Allen Pearson |
Thank you for your responses and great advice. You've given me quite a bit to think about. A couple things I'd like to add: Currently, I have a Fuji S5200 and plan to upgrade one of these days. I didn't expect my photgography interests to actually go this far so what I am trying to avoid is buying a software then deciding I need to something else next year as which has happened with my camera. First, I am not worried about the price of the software. I am not wealthy, but I'd rather invest now than reinvest later. Also, as a photographer, I try to portray nature as natural as I find it, I am not looking to "add a wing to a bird or whatever", just have a clean software I can download to and make "lab-type" of corrections and correct a few errors such as a bug landing on the lenses as you take a perfect photo that cannot be repeated. Thanks for your responses. If can give me anymore direction, please let me know.
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Richard Lynch |
People pooh-pooh Elements because it isn't the status symbol Photoshop is. Photoshop does have a few more functions than Elements, but it can be argued that you don't need them as there are ways to do every image editing task in Elements if you learn how. The truth is the difference in price is largely due to specialty interests that most users will never bother to learn to use and may never need, like converting to CMYK (not needed with the more usual RGB workflow these days), some web design features (and really the whole Image Ready application is web specific), and automation (Actions and Scripting). If those three things are meaningless for your work, I'd stick with Elements. Elements was designed around the needs of digital photographers.
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Pete H |
The last time I used a sledge hammer to kill a mosquito; I missed! LOL CS is overkill for all but the most demanding pro..and even then, it probably could have been done another way.
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- Ken Smith Contact Ken Smith Ken Smith's Gallery |
If you wish to save money, then I recommend Photoshop Elements. I have ver 4.0, which is very similar to 5.0. Also, I highly recommend Scott Kelby's Book, titled "The Photoshop Elements book for Digital Photographers." It has lots of examples for using Elements, in color! For that matter, Scott Kelby has a similar book for CS3. Also, there's a great web site you could go to: http://www.photoshopelementsuser.com/learningcenter/ I used to be a member..which allowed me access to all their little tutorials for using the different features.
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Diane Dupuis |
Hi again Allan! I also have the Fuji s5200... Recently upgraded to the Canon Rebel xti... But still carry around the fuji wherever I go... It's just easier and smaller! It sure sounds like Elements will do all that you want to do (and so much more!)... I also recommend any book by Scott Kelby!
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Brooke M. Lewis |
I third the Scott Kelby book. Another one I like that covers some things that Scott's book doesn't is "Photoshop Elements 5, The Missing Manual".
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Richard Lynch |
Brooke, that Missing Manual book is an excellent book by my Photoshop Elements friend Barbara Brundage. Scott Kelby's books are a little light and perhaps tend to be disposable.
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Allan L. Whitehead |
Allen, it depends upon what your financial resources will stand. I use PS3CS3 and find it an unbelievable choice and a lot of people find elements is a lot lets expensive. Most people who use PS find they don't use a lot of its potential. No matter which program you decide on I would suggest taking a course or two here at BetterPhoto that introduces you to the power of these two great programs. I've taken 4 courses on Photoshop and learned things about the program that saves me literally hours a day in processing time, as I take about 1,000 - 1,500 pictures a week - Allan Whitehead
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Bernard |
Hello all' no one mentioned that Elements 5.0 does not allow editing of camara raw. Richard ' nice article on using natural light, looking forward to your class once I learn the all around basics.
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Peter Konrad |
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Brooke M. Lewis |
I shoot everything in camera raw and still use Elements 5 to process. I have to convert the image to 8 bit depth to use some of the editing tools, but I find that most of the tools I use (levels, color enhancement, etc. can be done with a 16 bit image.
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Richard Lynch |
" Hello all' no one mentioned that Elements 5.0 does not allow editing of camara raw." I am not sure what you mean about this...you can edit images in Elements 5 when you open them with Camera RAW in a way very similar to the way you do with Photoshop. Thre may be some limitations with 16-bit images and the adjustments in RAW may not have as many controls...but many people attempt to do too much in RAW anyway that should be held off until you have greater control. " If you want to manipulate your photos a lot, Photoshop CS3 is the answer" If you want to manipulate your images significantly and 'a lot' you can just as well do it in Elements as in Photoshop if you learn how to use it. Most of the additional tools Photoshop provides are either superfluous to getting image editing results, or they are for other issues (CMYK, Actions, Scripting, Web development). I've used both intimately, and written broadly about both, and Elements is a significant and oft dismissed image editing program...when it probably shouldn't be dismissed. It is particularly legitimate as a learning gound for using Photoshop, but more it can remain a primary image editor for your digital imaging needs. it doesn't need plugins and additional software.
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Allen Pearson |
Thanks to everyone for your advice. I like this atmosphere where a beginner can ask questions and not be treated like an idiot. My future plans do not include editing or manipulating photos a lot. I would like to merge or combine photos on occasion but my overall plan is to be able to correct or repair a blemish or "that bug on the lens." I have one of Adobe basic starter software's "Album 2.0" and liked it. So, I thought I would look further into the Adobe products as I currently only have a softare that came with my computer. I'll look into the Corel suggestion too. I take an average of 200-500 photos a week and now that I just bought a 2G card, it may increase. And, if price were not a concern, would you still go with Elements? Does that make any difference in your opinions?
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Bernard |
Before reading the last four post I had already purchased the CS upgrade from elements $299.00, I guess I move to fast.
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Marianne Fortin |
Rumor has it that Element 6.0 is in the works - might come out before the holidays? I use Canon DPP for raw conversions and Elements 3.0 (comes bundled with Wacom tablet for less than $100.00). I will be interested to see whether Elements 6.0 will be worth getting.
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John P. Sandstedt |
Only if it finally gets Curves and Channel Mixer.
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Erin Johnson |
I'll skip reading all the POP Mail. Flat out PS is for graphic designers Lightroom is for Photographers Pay now or pay later or pay both, its your money you decide.
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Bernard |
regarding "Pay now or pay later or pay both" The odd thing is that up to mid september PS is $299.00 and lightroom is also $299.00. The "Missing Manual book" and subject of the unknown benefits of elements, (especially unknown to me) has lead me to the decision to cancel my purchase of Photoshop and purchase the strobe SB-800 for my Nikon SLR.
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Erin Johnson |
I warned you all that it was $199 for a limited time, if you missed it, only the early bird gets to eat fresh.
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David B. Coblitz |
As a Nature photographer, you will not be expecting to go nuts in editing your photos, so you might even consider free software like Picassa, which you can download from Google.com I agree with the previous comments that I've found very little that PS does that I can't do in Elements including things that many think can't be done in Elements. The only one I haven't found an equivalent for is action recording. You may also want to check out ACDSee. It does quite a bit & is much simpler to learn than PS or Elements. In general, what it lacks is as much ability to work on specific parts of an image (but it does include great cloning & healing tools for that) and better exposure manipulation than Elements. It's about 1/2 the cost of Elements. Another trick is to sign up for a community college course & then PS isn't nearly as expensive. At the full $600-700 price, the differences from Elements aren't nearly worth it, but for $200 I might spring for PS. Dave Coblitz
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Allen W. Harry |
Allen, Let me answer from the point of view of someone that was in your shoes a short time ago. Unless you plan to do a lot of graphic design, you don't need CS. I first bought Elements 5.0 and found it to be great for my photo pixel processing needs. I was at a workshop when I was introduced to Lightroom 1.0. I was skeptical at first, but I tried the free trial version and fell in love with it. For photo organization, it's tops. LR does do a great job with photo development as well. It integrates directly with Elements 5, so when I need to do a little more with the pixels it takes me there and back in one smooth motion. LR came out with version 1.1 that added some nice changes. With Elements 5 you will need to download RAW version 4.1 for it to work well with LR 1.1 Hope this helps. Allen Harry
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Bernard |
Allen' In response to "With Elements 5 you will need to download RAW version 4.1 for it to work well with LR 1.1". That statment is in conflict with richards: qoute " you can edit images in Elements 5 when you open them with Camera RAW in a way very similar to the way you do with Photoshop" unqoute. Allen in your statment are you emphasizing the words "work well"
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Bernard |
Thanks all' I've downloaded RAW version 4.1 and it works well with PSE 5.0.
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Steve M. Harrington |
I'm on a new iMac and use Elements 3. I have also purchased Richard's book, which adds curves and other vital editing tools, as well as being highly informative. With the exception of actions, there is nothing I can not do with Elements. I can barely imagine what I would do with more tools. Get confused, I suspect! I have years of learning to do with what I already have.
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Bernard |
I was on Amazon.com looking for Richards book, I saw photoshop 5 1998), Elements 4, 2, but no elements 5, well! I guess while I wait for Elements 5 to be released I'll read the manual.
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Allen W. Harry |
Bernard, PSE 5.0 has been out for some time. If you want to play with it, go to the Adobe website and you can down load a trial version for free. I think it is good for 30 days.
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Richard Lynch |
Bernard, I am not writing a book on Elements for Elements 5...It was a contract thing with the publisher. I will be putting out tools for Elements 5, but I'm trying to do it so there can be support with the book content, and it is taking a LOT longer than I expected (lots of other positive projects getting in the way like my new Layers book, and new courses posted here at betterphoto!). You can get the FREE tools for Elements 5 from my website: http://hiddenelements.com. I'll have more stuff for Elements 5 users shortly. Elements 4, 3, 2 and 1 users are covered! I'll even be starting to put out things for both Photoshop and Elements like my new Magic Mask tool set that allows you to create 26 masks with a click based on tone. Steve, I designed those tools and the book to give you everything you'd need to bring Elements right up to speed with Photoshop. For most users it is all you'll ever need.
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Steve M. Harrington |
Richard, perhaps you can answer one question for me. Since I upgraded from my G4 laptop to the iMac with Intell, I find Elements freezing on occasion. Do I need to upgrade to another version of Elements and, if so, will all my present Power Tools continue to work?
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Richard Lynch |
Steve, I assume you are trying to run Elements 3 on an Intel mac. I don't have an intel, but I have Elements 1-4 installed on my Mac (really 5 too, but I run it with Virtual PC). I have read about some installation issues, but if you are beyond that, I don't know that you should be experiencing other problems. My guess would more likely be that you have either almost no room on your hard drive, have an internet connection without a firewall, too little RAM, a software conflict, or some such issue -- otherwise the complaints would be all over the internet. I don't think upgrading to 4 will fix the issue. Do you keep current with OS upgrades? You might want to check on that as well. I am running 10.4.10 which should be fairly current...older OS versions may have more issues. As far as the tools, Adobe keeps changing Elements and the way add-ons can be implemented, so I have had to release new tools with each version. Some of the Elements 3 tools may work in Elements 4, but you will find a significant number will not and it is not recommended. I hope that helps!
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Steve M. Harrington |
Thanks for your response Richard. I don't have any of the problems you mentioned and I am running 10.4.10. As I understand it, the problem is with the Mac version of Elements running on Intel. The program has been significantly slower since I switched from the G4. Apparently the program must convert using "rosetta" I think it's called. If anyone can give me some advice, I'd appreciate it. It's frustrating to have things work so slowly and even freeze up.
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Craig m. Zacarelli |
CS3 most definetly..(hey that Rhymed...lol) Im not too sure but does Lightroom offer all the elements of cs3 as in layers, masking, selection....and everything elses that the hard working photographer might want or need? I believe Lightroom was made as a compliment to photoshop so youd "develope" the shots in lightroom then do any editing in PS...correct?
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BetterPhoto Member |
I use a Canon Digital Rebel XTi, and I was just wondering, what's a good software to use for photos? I have Photoshop 5.0, but it really doesn't do the things I need. Either that, or because I got ripped off and bought it on ebay for thirty dollars and it looks like a sample version. I used to use Arc Soft, and I like that more to be honest (but it doesn't do everything I need). I like something that's small, and doesn't have three million features and that's easy to use. I need something basically for my needs of Lighting, Contrast, Sharpening, Saturation, and Curve Sharpening. is there any such editor like I described that exists?
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Marianne Fortin |
Elements 6.0 is available on 10/5/07 and will be around $90.00. All the promotional stuff I have found is aimed at inexperienced users so not sure what it will have for more advanced users. The interface will be more like Lightroom from what I can tell. I guess we will know more when the reviews are in.
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Richard Lynch |
Craig, Elements has layers, masking and selection, and just about anything a digital photographer needs. It has gotten a bum rap because of the way it is advertised and how people who don't even use it suggest it is somehow crippled. I've written 3 books on it telling users how to get all the features they say they don't have...CMYK, Curves, Channels, and many more. You'll work a little differently than you do in Photoshop, but frankly I learned more using Elements (I've used Photoshop for 17 years). Brian, Photoshop has made massive changes since Photoshop 5. You might want to have a look at my blog on the subject of upgrades. I am not sure what 'Curve Sharpening' is. Perhaps a tool in something else you used? Marianne, New features may be geared to make it easier for newer users, but the same old features for power image editing still appear in Elements: layers, masking, selection, and all of the most needed tools...and I'll have add-ons for the program before November to add 100+ features and make it more like Photoshop. I hope that helps!
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