 Marina K |
Wedding Photography Deposits Ok, so here's a question from a newbie. I have been in photography business for a little over 6 months and I have been booking a few weddings where I would ask the client to pay the deposit (which is nonrefundable) and that is stated on my contract. Now I know that if something happens and they change their mind and don't want/need my services all of a sudden, the deposit is mine to keep. But my question is, what happens if they paid me the deposit and I can't make it to shoot their wedding. What if I have a family emergency the last minute and absolutely can't make it. Do I give them the deposit back? Any advice is appreciated.
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dave |
absolutely, you voided the contract
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Jon Anslow |
the way things are today I would ensure if I could not do it I had an emergency stand by photographer to cover ( I would hate not to have a photographer at my wedding it would be a disaser. Or secondly I would have a good insurance policy cause you just ruined a womans most special day and there bound to sue (a woman scorned and all that). Sorry just food for thought
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Jerry Frazier |
OK, PET PEEVE WARNING. As a professional wedding photographer, you don't get to have 'emergencies'. That's all there is to it. Welcome to it. When you have 103 fever, you drink DayQuil, you bring a friend pro photographer who will cover your @$$, and you show up and do your job, and go throw up on your own time. That is the reality of the business! Sorry if I'm blunt, but YOU don't get to back out. When a parent dies in your family, you show up and do YOUR JOB. You be sad when it's done. Again, the reality of this business kind of sucks. It's not very much fun. It seems all happy wee-wee yeah, what a beautiful day, but the fact is that it's very, very hard and difficult work. And, as a pro, you are expected to show up, no matter what. I tell my clients that the only way I wont show up is if I am dead, or close to it. And, I mean it. You made a commitment to this person. The only way you could back out, is with lots of warning, a full refund, and help them find a replacement for you. But, it is very, very inconsiderate and very unprofessional to do that. You wont last very long in the business if you do that. I would say that just one emergency would really hurt you. Two of them would probably seal your fate. People talk! Take care.
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Jerry Frazier |
One last thing, if you call it a deposit, you can't keep it, even if they cancel on you. The proper term is a retainer. But, even that comes into question in court. So, if you advertise your prices thusly, $3,000 includes blah, blah, blah. A judge will say, how much of that $3k was for the "retainer". You might say $1k. The judge says, 'Oh, then it's not a retainer fee, but part of the service for providing wedding photographs, therefore, it's returnable as such. There are complex ways around this. It's not usually a problem for most people, but the fact that you are talking about backing out, makes me think you need to go see a lawyer WHO SPECIALIZES IN THIS TYPE OF SERVICE.
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Marina K |
First of all, I am NOT planning on backing out!!! I just wanted to know what to do just in case something happens and a photographer (NOT ME but in general)can't make it! WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS JUMP YOUR BACK WHEN YOU ASK A QUESTION ON THIS FORUM, GEEZ. Like I said I am NEW at this, that is why I ask questions, I thought that this forum was for asking questions, is it not? People need to stop judging others and assume things that aren't true!
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TERESA J. SWEET |
Hi Marina, More often that not, most pros I know have the non-refundable deposit for a wedding. This goes for canceling or booking with another photographer other than yourself. HOWEVER, should YOU (not the client) back out for any reason whatsoever, it really is your responsibility to return the deposit to the clients. I always tell my clients that unless something MAJOR happens to myself, hubby or son (and I mean major, god forbid), that would be the ONLY reason I wouldn't make it. Other than that, I tell them even if I'm sick, I'm there. But I would definitely suggest having a backup photographer. Whether they are just 'on call' if needed or accompany you to some weddings to get some experience and build their own portfolio. That way, you can show the clients what type of work they do, how they do it, etc...you may find that most couples are hesitant to book you if you do not have a backup photographer. Heck, even if you do not know of any photographers starting out...put out an ad stating you're looking for an assistant. Pay them what you can afford, and someone who just wants to get their feet wet in the business will probably jump at the opportunity. Hope this helps!
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TERESA J. SWEET |
Ah, welcome to the world of photography and freedom of speech. LOL. Joe B is great at advice and really knows what he's talking about, as do many people here. Some people are just a little more blunt than others. Try to take it with a grain of salt and ignore harsh comments and take the advice that you think is best. If you would like, email me offline and if you need to 'adjust' your contract regarding this subject, I can let you know what mine says. I had a lawyer look it over and got his input on it too. Just let me know =)
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Kerry L. Walker |
Joe's response might be harsh, blunt, etc. but it is spot on the money. If you have an emergency and can't show up, it had better be an EXTREME emergency. Sickness (yours or that of any other family member) is not an excuse unless you are so sick you are in the hospital. In the event of any such extreme emergency, you need to try to provide a back-up photographer (not always easy). If you can't shoot and you can't find a substitute, you MUST refund the deposit (retainer).
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Jerry Frazier |
Sorry. I was blunt for a few reasons. Every week I read a new article, or a friend sends me one, of a new wedding photographer that got in over their head, and just disappeared. This is becoming a real problem. You see, we sell trust. Not photos. Trust. And, every time that trust is broken, you have violated the very product you are selling. I also got on your case to show you how it sucks. You really shouldn't ever think about it, and to be asking the question now, this early, says alot. I never even questioned this when I started. I thought if I didn't show, I'd go to jail or something. The sense of responsibility I feel is so strong and so immense, that it takes prescedence over EVERYTHING in my life. My life is not mine on Saturdays. What is cool about wedding photography, and the reason that those of us that do it, love it, is, it's only one day. You can almost tough it out through anything for one day, and then go home and die. That's fine. Anyway, I was blunt to show you how this business has a dark side. The dark side is what sinks most people. Anyway, check with a lawyer, but there is no such thing as a non-refundable deposit. That does not exist. You will have to refund it if you call it a deposit. A deposit is a payment now for future services. If the services do not happen, then you give the money back. A retainer, on the other hand, in legal speak, is not for future services. It is the fee required for me to hold the date, and not accept any more weddings on that particular day. A non-refundable retainer, is the wording you use. But, I am not a lawyer. You should have a lawyer who specializes in this field, look over your contract. As I said, in a court of law, even a retainer comes into question. There is a way to handle this by having a client sign two separate contracts. One for the booking fee, or retainer. This contract says that the money is not refundable, and is strictly for the service of holding the date, and being available for questions and such. The 2nd is for the photography of the wedding, and that payment is due 2 weeks prior to the wedding, and is for the actual services. I usually get paid for this kind of advice. Consider it a starting bonus.
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Marina K |
Thank you for the advice. It's much better understood when not stated rudely. I now understand what I have to do. Thank you all and thank you Teresa for being polite in answering my question :)
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Jerry Frazier |
I wasn't rude at all. I was straight and to the point. Some take that as rude. I take it as not BS'ing people about things. There is a softer approach, but I don't play that way. Have a powerful day,
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Oliver Anderson |
Marina, hate to say it but I cringe when I read that type of question about wedding photography. Joe is right on about this and he's just very passionate about his wedding photography. Anyways...I have a couple friends that photograph weddings for a living in San Fran. They have insurance policys to cover their rears and have other photographers that can help out in case of an emergency. He told me he had to pay $2000 out of his pocket to have a friend cover a wedding he couldn't make due to his father having a stroke (he lived). He's been shooting weddings for 14 years and only 2 times he had to find a replacement. When he did he started with his best alternative and went down the list...even if it cost him out of pocket. He's been called a quite often from other photographers to work since he's very reliable and has incredible work...he gets $10,000-$15,000 a wedding.
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Mark Feldstein |
Well kids, at least in California the Civil Code has a statute that specifically prohibits non-refundable deposits and that further limit the actual amount of deposits. As I recall, the business and professions code also limits deposits. And yep, there are a few ways to circumvent the "non-refundable" portion, but that only applies to that portion you can demonstrate by a preponderence of evidence (51% on a scale of 1-100) that you may be entitled to keep for one reason or a few limited others. The legality of the policy and how it's worded are creatures of both contract law and statute in your particular state. Soooooooooooooo, while Teresa's offer is well-intended, if she doesn't live in the same state as you do, Marina, then you need to get a lawyer where YOU live to make the determination AND do it on his/her letterhead so you can rely on that particular advice as a defense in court. :>) And, AND Marina, remember that you get what you pay for. Asking for legal advice around here isn't such a swell idea for a lot of reasons or at least relying on legal advice you get around here isn't such a swell idea, even if it's from guys like me, Joe or even Kerry. ;>) Mark
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Marina K |
Thanks for the tips...right now I am just starting out and I thought it is important to ask questions such as mine. And while I am not making $10,000 per wedding, I will get legal advice from a lawyer. I am doing photography merely because I love photography, not because I am after the money, that is why my prices are below $500 - the less I charge, the less crap I have to deal with...
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Irene Troy |
I have to say that I am with Joe and Kerry on this one. Yes, Joe can lack tact at times, but he is right much of the time. [tact not being something that I always have either, nor something that really bothers me that much of the time]. Anyway, I think I can appreciate where he is coming from about this issue. I am just starting out in the photography business – nature and travel to compliment my writing – but, I have to tell you that I am really getting an earful of awful stories about irresponsible photographers in every aspect of our trade. Granted, nature and travel is not as high pressure as weddings, but, even in my side of things, it seems that there are plenty of so-called “pros” who feel no compunction about backing out of shoots at the last moment for reasons ranging from the forgivable – serious accident affecting a child or spouse; serious illness, etc. – to the unforgivable – better job elsewhere or social occasion. Funny enough, this is how I actually broke into doing photography for someone other than the magazines for which I write. If anyone thinks that our trade is peopled only with good, honest and responsible people, think again! I wish this was true, but we all know it is not. Bottom line, IMHO – if you agree to do a job, you do that job to the best of your ability. If you get the flu, you do the job. If you sprain your ankle, you do the job; if your spouse is home sick – you do the job. Are there exceptions? Yes, but, you need to plan for these and make sure that someone can do the job when it needs to be done! Even I, as a barely begun “pro” always have someone to cover my A** just in case. And, as I said, in nature/travel you have more flexibility than in weddings. I’m sure, Marina that you are not planning to get sick; develop a new interest that takes you away from your weddings, or to book extra work thus forcing you to abandon the less well paying job. I suspect that what you are really asking is how you plan for the unforeseen disaster. Again, in my limited experience in a different area of our field, you do just that: consider every contingency and plan accordingly. Oh, and develop a tough skin – if you think folks here can be blunt, just wait until one of your clients lets loose all her frustrations and blames you for everything from the fact that her dress is torn to the weather! And one final thing; after reading your final post about how much you charge: never think that because you charge less than the competition that your clients will expect less or that you will not have as much crap to deal with. People expect what they expect and price has little to do with this.
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Oliver Anderson |
Whoaaaaa!!! Marina $500 for a wedding is more than low. Make sure you're being fair to yourself as well as your clients. did you forget a 0?
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Jerry Frazier |
Hey Oliver, I think a new person should walk with $500 in their pocket. Most new wedding photographers think that if they are digital, and all they do is hand over a disk, that the $500 is all cash. I stopped preaching about price because I finally realized that they'll learn soon enough. No big deal.
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Oliver Anderson |
Cool, what do I know??? All I DO know is I'm not photographing another wedding for a long time....and I'm definately not getting married for even longer.JK (sorry Robyn) Anyways thats why I stick to photographing bikini models, cars and bikes. Never missed a must have shot since I made that decision. I must say the level of separation between great and OK wedding photographers is becoming HUGE and in SoCal and NorCal people are paying big bucks for talent.
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dave |
If the couple cuts out on you the only way they get the deposit back is if you get booked for that same day at least as much as their package was. You can tell the Judge how may couples you turned down because the day was already booked. $500? that'll help buy what?
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Marina K |
Well boys and girls, the area where I live does not have the richest and the wealthiest of people...not sure who would pay $10,000 for a wedding anyway. Most of the brides I meet want a price ever LOWER then $500.....the place that I advertise on the Internet has hundreds of other photographer all across Georgia offering to do weddings for $500 or less......so....no big deal, since I am just starting out its fine by me...like I said, I am doing it to gain experience and knowledge...I am going to concentrate more on Kids and Pet Photography, and no so much on weddings.
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Rom A.G. |
without having read any of the replies, here is my opinion: so you want to keep the deposit if they change their mind/break up/relative dies/house burns down/bride or groom is hospitalized/arrested/killed/bride is abducted by aliens and taken to planet zorkon;however, if the same happens to you, and you dont show up for their wedding to shoot it, you wont refund their $. nope, not fair. you have to perform a service to keep a deposit. In fact, my friend was hired to shoot a chasidic wedding in NJ. He was pulled over and arrested on the way there from NYC by NJ state troopers for failure to pay $500 in tickets. He spent the night in jail missing the wedding.
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Jerry Frazier |
Marina, There are way higher wedding photographers in GA. I know this. So, here's what's going on. If you were to start your business in Los Angeles, every bride you met with would want everything under the sun for less than $1,000. So, you would work with that. But, after a couple years, you would realize that you are losing money on every wedding. And, you would be confused by this. One day, you get very fed up, and go for it, and start charging $3k. When you do this, you realize there are a whole new set of brides that excpect to pay at least that much. And, as you look around, you see that you are still under priced, because there are a million photographers who are living next door to you that start at $4,500 minimum. And, that might just be for proofs, no album or anything. As you look a little deeper, you find out that $4,500 is pretty avg, and there are people starting at $8k. And, they do 40 weddings a year. And you wonder, who the hell would pay that? But, people pay it, and it's also going on in Georgia. It's OK for now, because you are starting. But, just realize that your world is a little bit myopic. You're missing the larger view of this thing. People are willing to spare no expense to have the ultimate fantasy wedding day. Selling to that crowd is different, though. I would say in GA, you could very easily charge around $1,500, as a starting rate, for just shooting, no photos or album for that. Just maybe on-line proofs or something. I am saying this with having no idea about your talent, because I am assuming that if you are charging, no matter how much or how little, you are a competent professional photogrpaher. And, just to make sure you don't take this the wrong way, weddings are a very different animal. We have a commercial shooter in our area that has found weddings. He shoots them here and there and charges commercial rates (this means he gets paid crap for what he delivers). Weddings are a fantasy. It's not about what you are worth. It's all about the your percieved value. The better you can create this fantasy, the higher your value will be in the eyes of your clients. While I agree that $10k is alot for a wedding for just the photography. There are alot of $100k budgets for weddings. $10k is only 10% of the budget. Think about it this way. Do you know that YOUR brides are probably paying more for their dress than they are for you? Which is more important? When I started, I was really low priced, and I got angry when I bride told me how much her cake costs, and it was more than I charged. I was fuming at that because she valued her cake more than me! The images will last a lifetime, the cake wont. Remember that. These wedding photos will be passed down generation to generation. Nothing else, except maybe the ring and dress, has this same value. It's almost priceless. If you can sell it that way, you will find a goldmine of people that will pay any price for you to shoot their wedding. Lastly, as you do research, don't be fooled by prices on peoples websites. I might get a bride to buy my $4,500 package, but they frequently buy additional parent albums, prints, collages, additional album pages, or maybe a 2nd album, and other items which easily take it up it the $6,000 range or more. Sometimes, there is an advantage to keeping the price, initally, down, and then just having lots to offer. And, you don't have to push it, they come asking for it.
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Marina K |
Thanks Joe. I have had many brides contact me and they tell me they love my work, but they end up choosing another photographer. I then ask them why decided to go with someone else and they tell me they got a lower price with someone else, or they got their friend or family family to shoot the wedding instead. I just wonder how much lower will someone go to offer photography services....it's very competive. I also noticed that many brides cry about their small budget and that they cannot afford more then $400 or $500. This one bride that called me, she was told by her mother that she would have a $500 budget, and that's not for the photography - that's the ENTIRE wedding budget. So you see, I can't charge her thousands for the pictures. Sad, but these are the kinds of clients I deal with.....not sure what else to try...
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Oliver Anderson |
Marina, maybe Joe and I are used to California prices. the cakes are $500-$1500. THe post production I did on the photos for the wedding took me about 18 hours alone so I factor that with the wedding hours and you're at 20+ hours for that money. I don't know how I'd be able to pay for my collection of cameras and lenses for that money.
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Jerry Frazier |
If you compete on price, you will loose the game. The reason is that there will ALWAYS be someone who will do it cheaper. ALWAYS. So, competing based on price, is to ensure your demise. Take the focus away from price, and put it on your art. Why? Because ART is priceless. Why do people pay millions of dollars for paint on canvas. Because it's art. It's about what you offer, how you service your clients, how you present and sell the fantasy, and instilling trust. The fact that your clients think $500 is alot to pay is ludicrious. But, I can guess that the reason is because you are focused on price, not your work. And, because you are catering to that crowd. I would advise you to stop catering to that crowd, and start thinking bigger. Charge $1k or something. You will get a new set of brides that are not shopping based on price, but rather are shopping based on quality of your work. So, you can keep shooting at $500 and do that for a while. Once you get a very nice portfolio together, then double that. Then double that. And, just keep moving. You will find new brides at those new levels. They are there. They do exist. Call some of your local photographers, and join your local PPA for support. Most people will probably be willing to help. I am a strong advocate for raising the bar. When I find locals, like you, charging dirt cheap rates, I call them and try to encourage them to raise them up in order to keep the industry sustainable.
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Marina K |
Got it. Thank you!
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Oliver Anderson |
Exactly...Marina get really really good then when I get married to my gal I'll fly you out and have you photograph my wedding for $500 + room and board.
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Marina K |
OK Oliver, but I won't be charging $500 anymore by the time you get married...LOL :o)
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Oliver Anderson |
maybe I'll send a deposit now to lock in the price.haha Finding someone to marry is easy, finding someone that can live with me for over a year...impossible.
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dave |
GEORGIA Matt Adcock GA $3500+ lianaPHOTOGRAPHY Liana Lehman GA $3000+ Tim Zielenbach GA $4400+ Marc Climie GA $3700+ Shawna Herring GA $2700+ Manuel Llaneras GA $2800+ McLarty Photography Charlie McLarty GA $3400+ I Shot The Bride® Romina Rivadeneira GA $2000+ Talbot Photo Imagery Trenton Talbot GA $1800+ Aureole Studio, Inc. Tamalyn Lee GA $5500+ Almasy Visual Arts Annebella Almasy GA $3000+ Hassel Weems GA $3200+ Anne Ledbetter GA $2870+ W. Scott Chester GA $3000+ Our Labor Of Love Jesse Chamberlin GA $1995+ Ruf Image Mary Ruf GA $4150+ Michael Schwarz GA $2995+ A Family Affair Kevin Watson GA $2500+ Steve Barnhart GA $2000+ LaCour Mark Adams GA $6600+ Nick Oza GA $1850+ Mark Najjar GA $2550+ Edward Zeltser GA $2200+ Javon Longieliere GA $2100+ Shawna Doss GA $2800+ David Christensen GA $1950+ Kiet Do GA $2000+ They'll even fly in if you want.
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Jerry Frazier |
Hey Oliver, I'm still waiting for you to call me up to come assist on one of those modelling shoots. I've been thinking about employing some OMP girls. Do you have any experience with that?
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dave |
if you keep your price up you most likely won't get the shoppers for price, more the shopper for your artwork.
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TERESA J. SWEET |
I feel this thread will go on forever. I'm just gonna say in Marina's defense….I also do not start my wedding packages at $3K and up, not to mention $10K. Will I eventually? Sure. I researched a lot of photographer's in my area to see what their packages were like, their work, experience, etc etc….Am I confident in my work and abilities? Absolutely. I've been doing photography for 12 yrs but recently started weddings a year ago. I took into factor my experience in that field and weighed that in my pricing as well. Do I charge enough FOR NOW to meet clients budget AND make a good profit for myself? Absolutely. Will my prices change each year as my experience grows? Yes. But honestly, no one I know would pay $10K for a photographer…not in my area anyway. Maybe in the high end states like CA or whatnot, but DEFINITELY not in my state and I know that for a fact. LOL Heck, I have clients who stated they specificially did not want to pay $3K for a photographer. And yes, sometimes they add things in addition to packages that may reach that amount, then they maybe are willing. It's all a matter of preference, opinions, and how you want to start out, etc. But if you're just starting in that field…it's understandable. Whether one person thinks that or thinks otherwise, eh….bottom line: Do what you think is best for you, your work and what you want to accomplish! =)
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Marina K |
Thanks Teresa....I agree with you 100%
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Oliver Anderson |
Joe, I've been assisting on shoots for the last week for an amazing photographer. He's very skilled and teaching me everything from different lighting techniques, different body angles, different photo angles as well as post production...it's like getting a golf lesson from a PGA Tour Pro. Hit me through OMP 171166 and I'll give you the lowdown.
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dave |
I guess if you aint got bills to pay, at least tell them "I normally charge $1000, but since I like you I'll give you a discount". I charge over what I want and then give them gifts they actually paid for. They wouldn't have bought it when they found out the price, but since I gave it to them as a gift they were thrilled because it wasn't expected. Also I have forced upon them a purchase of the highest quality in which they will showcase my work to relatives, friends and the lot.
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dave |
Excuse me Oliver and Joe, if you want to have a personal conversation that has nothing to do with the question, may I suggest another place. Maybe start a new thread that says "just for Joe". If you want to derail a thread, go hang out with our local loser, Mr. Brady.
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Jerry Frazier |
I contributed plenty to this thread, which gives me the right to derail it if I want. :) Marina, if you want to charge $500 and you feel comfortable at that level, than continue. I was just trying to provide a little courage that $500 is insanely low, and you are actually losing money at that price. It looks like like "dave" went to the WPJA and copied the GA page. That gives you some idea of what other pros in your area are charging. By the way, those are starting rates. So, understand that your price is way down there, and what you see is around $2,500 to $3,000 is an avg starting price in the state of GA.
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Oliver Anderson |
Geee thanks for that Dave. You'll notice I also contributed to the thread and told Joe to contact me on OMP if he's interested. I do make an effort to contribute to threads even if I do add a little humor with my responses.
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dave |
So have I, but I don't have to Add things like "hey shoot any hooters girls yet". Get my point, you didn't start this thread and if you did then I would give you the right(it would be your show). Don't be like that other character, which I have ignored since the beginning. If you want to help then do. Marina, my hats off to you. I'm sure the couple will be very happy with your pictures. Just step it up $250 after every wedding you do and you'll do just fine.
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