 Jane M |
BetterPhoto or BestPhoto? Seeing as it's getting around for finalists to be announced again I thought I might raise a question about the ethos and aim of the BetterPhoto site. I only took up photography 6 months ago and I was initially attracted to the BetterPhoto site as it seemed a good community for learning about how to improve my photography, and I think looking at my gallery it is easy to see how I've improved over the months thanks to this site. The competition was a great incentive to improve, as you could see better photos and see how they created them when they described how they were taken - useful for someone who knew little about f-stops!! However I've noticed over these months that there are many more professional photographers taking part and many who don't really contribute to the community but submit excellent photographs with no information whatsoever and never add comments either. How are you supposed to learn from them? There are plenty of sites with excellent photographs if I just want to look at good photographs. The contest guidelines seem to indicate they want entrants to put at least the most basic info on photos, such as shutter speed, etc but a substantial proportion of finalists have no info other than title yet they still get picked. Do the judges take no notice of their own guidelines? : ****************** Be Honest ***************** I've seen recent photos with un-stated flood filters and motion blur filters passed off as panning with nothing explained. I'm sure beginners who know no better will get discouraged trying to attain photos like that with no knowledge of the manipulation that took place in reality. This is not sour grapes, as each month I've looked at the finalists and known they're better than mine, and seeing how the standard keeps rising month after month I don't really expect to get a finalist but love entering and reading what people liked (and sometimes) disliked about my photos, it does help me develop. I'm just concerned where BetterPhoto wants to go, do they want finalists who contribute to the community and to just attract the best photographers to enter their portfolios with little or no explanation to how they were taken? If the former maybe the judges should pay more attention to their own guidelines. Rant over :-) :-)
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
"...I'm just concerned where BetterPhoto wants to go, do they want finalists who contribute to the community and to just attract the best photographers to enter their portfolios with little or no explIfanation to how they were taken?..." Where they want to go I'm sure is having people enjoy the classes, the use of their own galleries and sites(ease of use, quality of design, controlability satisfaction) and any improvements they can make to make to the different sections, within reason, that can make the whole site a generally good one to frequent. However, what info someone list to a photo is something that should just be up to them, without obligation. You said it yourself that they are guidelines, not rules or requirements. Outside of a contest or category that requires listed info for the purpose of not having cut and pasted photos with unaltered photos, I don't see how listing info should be something you're forced to do. Besides the simple fact that they probably just don't remember all the specifics of shutter speed or apeture. By the time it's saved at home, they probably forgot. But any time you see a picture you like, anywhere, all you have to do is just ask the person.
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Jane M |
I understand that people come to this site for different reasons but it seems to me from previous discussions on here that the carrot that draws most people is the competition and feedback. It looks like in the past BetterPhoto has done a lot to fine tune the competition. I know they are only guidelines but the phrase "the judges especially like" implies that they should be having some influence on them, and if not I'm simply suggesting that they should. The vast majority of entries are taken on digital cameras that save all the basic info on f-stop etc with the photo in the exif, so it's not a matter of people remembering the info. The other info like "did I use a flood filter?" shouldn't be hard to remember :-) I've noticed that on the whole the entrants that keep their cards closest to their chest in not revealing anything also tend to be the better photographers - who often end up finalists. That is their perogative but if BetterPhoto wants to influence people to share their information and help beginners learn then they should judge based on their guidelines. I like this site because on the whole you can still learn from many of the winners, and I'm really grateful to those many excellent photographers who do share their techniques.
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Sharon Day |
I don't see that many members listing all their camera exif and/or editing in PS on their entries. I don't do it too often because occasionally I adjust exposure some in Photoshop. Sometimes I prepare an image weeks before entering it. Unless I take detailed notes on every edit on every photo it's quite possible I'm not going to remember two weeks later if I simply resized and sharpened or did more extensive editing. With that in mind I don't see how it would benefit anyone for me to give the exif when it's been changed in the editing. The judges may be hard pressed to come up with 111 winners not to mention all the finalists if they restricted themselves to images listing that info in the description.
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KV Day |
I know a few on this site that have some PS steps they don't share due to the fact, other photos would look like her's if she shares. Can't say I blame em. That should be up to the person if they share. I'm like Sharon... I can't remember my PS steps sometimes and when I download images from my camera I delete them off my card right away. I couldn't go back and get and Fstop record if I wanted to and I down load 200 plus images at a time. I can't imagine listing all the settings for all 200. 1% of the images are ever seen by anyone and I may not even work it for months at a time. I think Special effects catergoy (the one where it should be "in camera" effects) the settings should be manditory, other than that, up the the photographer. Regards, Vicki
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Sharon Day |
Vickie, when you load your photos onto your computer the Exif goes with them. Right click on an image and then choose Properties. Click on Summary then click on Advanced and it should all be there for you to see, but like I said if a person does any editing for exposure it's pretty useless info anyway. If you're entering a shot of a waterfall with a slow shutter speed that can be helpful but for the average still life or scenic I don't see it matters. I hear you on the copying! That's a fact of life if you do something different and list the steps it took to create it especially if it wins.
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KV Day |
Hmmm I'm going to have to check into the property thing, I just check and it just gives size and date. I download into windows. Wonder if I used photoshop it would change. Ideas?
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Sharon Day |
Vicki, nothing changes in PS as long as you "save as." If you save for the web you lose it all. In Windows XP if you right click on the thumbnail in Windows Picture and Fax Viewer, then select Properties at the bottom of the little list you'll open a small window with two tabs. The General tab only shows you the size and date. The Summary tab shows you the rest of the info but you then have to click on Advanced to see a complete list.
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KV Day |
Thanks Sharon!
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Jane M |
Sharon, thanks for the feedback. When I look at shutter speeds and f-stops I'm not too concerned about exposure (I presume the camera metering largely takes care of that) or what you did in photoshop to adjust that after. What I look for is what shutter speed was chosen for motion freezing/intentional-blur/camera-shake and more importantly what f-stop (in conjunction with the lens used!!) was selected for DOF purposes. None of this should be affected by regular photoshopping unless more extreme blurring or motion filters are used. I also like looking at the lens used to see what lens I might like to get next to attain certain effects. I guess I didn't realise some people didn't know how to easily access this information, which may explain why some don't bother. It's beginning to look like I'm in a minority of one in my opinion, so maybe it isn't that important. It does require a bit of extra effort to put in the extra info but if no-one is interested then maybe I shouldn't bother too. I just wonder why they have it in the guidelines and prompt you for that info whenever you upload an entry if they don't think it is important.
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chrisbudny.com - Chris Budny Contact Chris Budny Chris Budny's Gallery |
I would agree with Jane, on the "spirit" of BP being intended as a community of learning and sharing. And I think very much for the most part, it is that. (As Gregory says, you can ask anyone for info, etc. And with just a few exceptions, people here respond. I've encountered only a tiny few "professional level" members, with galleries of nothing but gold medals, who never reply (either in their threads, or to direct emails) sadly. Perhaps a case of a few bad apples spoiling the bunch? But I've learned to admire their beautiful work, and leave it at that, moving on to other great images from the majority of sharing photographers.) I read that same blurb (about sharing data & technique) when I first joined, and as a habit, I put my EXIF data on probably 98% of my uploads here. I generally include things I do in PSE, although if I get sorta wild & exploratory, I know I forget a step or two. I've stopped including "crop" and "unsharp mask" and basic "levels" adjustments, just because they are so routinely part of all my edits for uploading. I will say to Vicki, as a consideration--my camera captures EXIF in the native JPG format; when I edit, I immediately save as TIFF. The resulting TIFF, as far as I have ever seen, loses the EXIF data (so I have to go back to the JPG file properties to get it, for inclusion in my photo's text on BP.)
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Sharon Day |
Jane, even if members here don't put that information on their images I've found most members will email you how something is done if you ask them. I can only think of one time lately when someone didn't feel like responding. I'm afraid I can't even recall what I asked now :o)! On the other hand one member when I asked how something was done in PS sent me the whole entire image file complete with all the layers for me to explore. Also, Google is invaluable for basic photography information. I did a fairly quick search and found this link for the silky water effect you see so often. http://www.webphotoschool.com/all_lessons/sample_lessons/Photographing_Water_In_Motion/index.html I questioned to myself why members didn't include this information when I first joined. I had read in the guidelines it was encouraged to do so, and at first I always included all pertinent info. I'm kinda like you. After a while when I didn't see many adding this info I asked myself why bother?? Now I just upload a pic and sometimes I add it and sometimes not. I guess it depends on my mood :o). It's no big secret about shutter speeds for water veiling so I'll try to go back and add that to my water shots soon. For motion shots I've gotten my best results at a shutter speed of 1/60th. I'm anywhere from 1/15th of a second to a full second or longer. This depends on how much light is on the scene. You need a ND filter for holding back the light if it's very bright out and my ND filter is only a 2x stop making it somewhat useless on a bright day. Best time to do those kinds of shots is on a very cloudy day.
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Sharon Day |
I got up too early. That last paragraph was confusing. 1/60th or even 1/30th shutter speed works well for motion. For water I use 1/15th to 1 or 2 seconds. Use the shutter priority mode. I usually let the camera's meter determine the aperture. You may need to underexpose to keep from blowing out the highlights in the water. If so just use your camera's exposure compensation or shoot on manual and override what the camera's meter is telling you is a good exposure.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
"...When I look at shutter speeds and f-stops I'm not too concerned about exposure..." Then why say everyone else should be required to fill you in on anything else? Of course someone is going to remember a plug-in filter. But exif info is only retained depending on how you save the file. And even if it is saved, trying to make people have to keep track of it while they are resizing, moving files to different folders, and waiting for several uploads to finish is unnecessary. Asking people to list info is just an idea they had to add to the general learning about photography mission statement type thing. And that's all it really is. Start a site about photography, ask people if they could list photo info as a way of adding to the learning experience. As for the contest, the judges may like photo info, but judging should be done on if it's a good picture. And info should really only have a significant influence on judging if a photo looks like you caught a moment, or display a skill but you really don't.
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Terry R. Hatfield |
Frankly Exif Data Is Boring, If I Want To Know How Sharon Or Other Photographers Have Made A Certain Image I Would Ask Them And They Would Tell Me As I Would Tell Them How I Did An Image, The IMAGE Is What I Want To See That's The Most Important Thing Along With Good Titles And A Approach To The Description In An Artistic Manner Rather Than Some Info That I Care Nothing About. Copying The Settings Will Not Get You The Same Results Their Is A Lot More That Went Into The Image Than Could Be Told. I Would Much Rather Know The Person's Mindset When They Made The Image It Makes For A Much More Interesting Discussion Rather Than Some Technical Info Like What Lens Did You Use, Huh? LOL! I Have Actually Listed That Info In The Past, Good Photographers Really Don't Want To Know What Your Fstop Was Or That You Used A $5000.00 Lens Or The Latest Greatest Camera, That's For People Who Like To Flaunt Their Equipment Rather Than Trying To Improve Their Composition Or Any Other Aspect Of What Goes Into A Great Image. I Still Wont Be Listing That Info But If You Need To Know Its Yours For The Asking:-)
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Sharon Day |
Well said, Terry!!! I couldn't agree with you more! There's courses and books to teach the basics. I enjoy an interesting description much more myself! And you're right about sharing. In the time I've been with BP I can only recall emailing one person to ask a question that didn't respond.
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Irene Troy |
Ahhhh…Jane? I had to respond to a comment that you made: “When I look at shutter speeds and f-stops I'm not too concerned about exposure (I presume the camera metering largely takes care of that)…” You state that you are fairly new to photography, so I will assume that this statement does not reflect your true knowledge and is more likely a misstatement; or, perhaps I am misunderstanding your comment completely. However, just in case you are confused: shutter speed and f stop have EVERYTHING to do with proper exposure! Just how else does one control exposure if not by these two controls? And if you are relying on the camera to select a proper exposure you are doomed to never creating a truly WOW image. Even the most expensive and refined camera is still simply a tool without an ounce of creative insight. A proper exposure is not just one where the two little lines or whatever system your camera uses – come together. There are many times when a photographer will deliberately over or under expose an image to achieve a creative exposure. When I view an image I am really interested in what the photographer saw when making the image and what led them to select that particular image – what it means to them, not just how they made the technical choices. As others have said; it is not technical knowledge that makes a great photographer; neither is it the equipment; rather it is passion and a willingness to keep trying long after everyone else has given up for the day. These are things that can neither be defined nor taught.
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Jane M |
Oh well heck Terry! So my desire to know what f stops and lenses were used as PART of the learning process does not bode well for me developing as a good photographer? I think a little respect for the diversity of how people learn their skill is called for here!! I read books and study compositions and I am not interested in who has the latest and greatest equiptment rather the chance to study images taken with different types of lenses.
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Brendan Knell |
Irene, I think that what Jane ment by that was, when she wants to know the shutter speed and f-stop, it's not for exposure. It's more to see how they captured a certain effect(veiled water, the wings of a hummingbird in perfect focus, ect...).
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Jane M |
Irene - thanks for the clarifiction on compensating exposure. Though I've only been doing this 6 months I like to think I'm a fast learner and I was actually aware of that. Here in New England with so much snow you soon learn you can't simply rely on what your camera meter tells you :-) My point about f-stop/speed not being so important when learning from a photo in terms of exposure is that it very hard to tell what the the ambient light was when the photo was taken, it is more useful to know what was metered off and what compensation was done if any. I agree it is not technical knowledge that makes a great photographer - but a great photographer must have technical knowledge to consistently produce great photos.
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Laura Kubasiewicz |
''Good Photographers Really Don't Want To Know What Your Fstop Was Or That You Used A $5000.00 Lens'' Isnt that the point? good photographers know all the boring technical stuff, its the crap ones like me that need to learn it! Yeah id rather just hear about composition and mindset and all that but surely you have to have a good technical base to relate these things the way you want. As for the info on photos thing, the only thing that bothers me is, like jane said, when I dont know if an image has been altered or not - if a photographer doesnt want to share exactly what theyve done no probs, but just knowing that it has been heavily manipulated would help you know what you can / cant do straight out of the camera. Maybe there could be a edited tab like on photo.net? Ah well theres my 2cents worth!!
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Jane M |
Brendan - thanks, that's exactly right Greg - I don't understand your first point. "The purpose of this site and gallery is primarily educational." In my opinion speed, f-stops and focal length go a long, long way up the learning curve to enable all those creative ideas we love to discuss and see described. I suspect the judges think so too which is why they ask for that info. If members don't want to help beginners out without them all individually emailing for details that's fine, maybe they're only here to "educate" the educated.
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Sharon Day |
I totally agree an entry heavily manipulated could have stated in the description it's been altered in PS or whatever program a photog prefers. AND it wouldn't hurt anyone to put what shutter speed they used for veiling water or conveying motion, but this is still a CONTEST and I'm afraid I see no reason to give everything away all of the time :o)! With that said, it wouldn't hurt my feelings for for BP to require ALL digital manipulation to be entered into the Digital Darkroom category but BP says it's ok in any category so that's fine by me too. It really sounds to me like Jane is having more of a problem with the dishonesty of an image than learning how to achieve it. Maybe this is why I'm seeing newer members state no PS in their descriptions. The only thing bad about that is a lot of those images could really benefit from some basic editing at the very least.
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Irene Troy |
Jane - I appreciate the clarification of what you meant by your comments. Glad that you understand the role that f-stops and shutter speed play in achieving a good exposure. Where are you in New England? Funny, but I learned the most about shooting in manual mode not when I was home in Mass. but when I was working in Montana and Alberta during winter storms! Talk about trying to learn fast! What type photography do you enjoy? Don’t you love the changing light in NE? On another topic that is touched on in this discussion: I was one of those hold outs on going digital and for a couple of years I considered digital simply "cheating". Then I went digital and have not turned back. In some ways I think that achieving a great image with digital can be harder. Not to ignite that old argument about film VS digital again (PLEASE!)! Then I thought that Photoshop was something only either real pros or "cheaters" used. I spent some time in film darkrooms learning and figured out something important (at least to me): Photoshop is really little different from the traditional darkroom. Sure you can manipulate an image and make it into something else, but you can do that with film. There is nothing wrong with using Photoshop to improve your image; any more than there is something wrong with manipulating a film image in the darkroom. All of it – the traditional darkroom; Photoshop; etc. are simply tools. Learning to use these tools is part of learning to make great images. There are no tools in either film or digital photography that will turn a mediocre photographer into a great one. Great photographers – and there are some here – are those who find a passion in making images and turn that passion into action. I am passionate about nature and wildlife. I have dreams of becoming a really good nature photographer. It is what gets me out of bed at 4 am to photograph early morning wildlife movements; it’s what keeps me outside when the temperature hovers around minus 5 and what makes me insane when despite my best efforts the images I create still fall short of greatness! So, I keep taking classes here; read everything I can and learn to use Photoshop just as I learn how to use my new camera and lenses. The right tools are important; knowledge is vital; however without the passion the resulting images will never be great. IMHO
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Irene Troy |
Oh...one last thought: if you want to learn how people make their images and how you can make similar images using similar techniques, you might consider a BP class. I have taken four and in each I have learned a tremendous amount from both the instructor and other students. Some classes you are asked to provide all relevent info on how the image was made including post capture editing.
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Jane M |
Irene - I'm near Boston, it's great having all the different seasons to shoot in. I love your gallery, great landscapes, the passion comes through! If you look at my gallery you can see what I do, mostly portraits of my children. I would like to do more flower photography which is why I'm interested in what type of lenses are used for the flower photos I like, I'm trying to decide on macro or extension tubes. I agree with you about Photoshop, I think it is just an extension of the camera equipment same as a darkroom was. In fact I have the settings on my camera such that it produces images that have to be adjusted in photoshop. Sharon - The rare "dishonesty" does irk me on behalf of absolute beginners but at least personally I can recognise it now. My greater concern is the general sharing of techniques, education and not being competitively secretive which is Betterphoto's stated ethos, though I respect the views of people who disagree with this ethos. Laura - you summed it up better than I!
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Sharon Day |
Well, the whole issue of manipulation could be resolved by requiring entries manipulated to be entered into the Digital Darkroom category, but I don't see that happening. In the meantime newbies will catch on pretty quick. I know I did.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Which first point didn't you understand? The very first, or the first in the second response? Sometimes you have to do your own leg work. Because so many other people do. Be it with buying a book, or remembering something you saw in a bookstore because you didn't feel the whole magazine was worth buying, experimenting, or looking at a photo and figuring it out on your own. Because saying somebody is obligated to tell what they came up with on their own, is a little weak. They got their groove, try gettin' your own.
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Jane M |
Greg - interesting that you bring up books, most educational photography books include settings info for each photo, so why wouldn't an educational web site? To repeat the first sentence in the terms and conditions under which you load every photo for this site: "The purpose of this site and gallery is primarily educational.". Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just re-iterating what the BetterPhoto site asks for. I wouldn't expect people to put their settings on other purely competitive web sites and if BetterPhoto re-stated their ethos and guidelines I wouldn't expect it here either. If people don't like the terms and conditions and gidelines for posting photos then they are under no obligation to post on this site. I think I've flogged this to death and am arguing silly points now, I don't really expect every photo to have EXIF info, but it would be nice if more people attempted to follow the guidelines and help beginners, I do and it doesn't seem a terrible burden to me.
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Sharon Day |
"I wouldn't expect people to put their settings on other purely competitive web sites and if BetterPhoto re-stated their ethos and guidelines I wouldn't expect it here either." Jane, I think you would probably enjoy the site more if you try to put BP into perspective. The contest is a cool way for BP to attract paying customers. I think it was a brilliant business strategy and I've felt for a while now this is quite possibly the sole purpose of the contest, to attract customers. I don't see the judges policing BP's "guidelines" as they have their hands full managing careers as well as judging here at BP. So with that in mind enjoy the photography, contest and community accepting it for what it is. I don't think it hurts to stress what Vicki mentioned earlier about copying. One of the problems I have with sharing all the steps involved in creating an original or unique image is the propensity of contestants here to copy. I've seen this happen with a couple of my own images. People can be so intent on winning they'll do anything to get a medal. I don't see any reason to help them. Frankly speaking I enter to win too and it irritates me royally to see something I have high hopes of placing being copied and entered a day later. I am willing to share that information after an image has won if someone writes me and asks for it, but I can't say I want to share it beforehand, and it's not necessary to learning basic photography. I'm really referring to special effects. There's a world of things that can be done and that's probably why they are called special effects :)!
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KV Day |
Standard photography, fstop apature shutter speed is one thing. I really don't think anyone would have a problem with listing the basics, post processing is another thing. It's unique to each persons taste, some use little or none, some use alot. It's more an art form. When you run into a way to make a image striking and is unique to you, its yours. Most images have post processsing in one way or another. If I have one gripe, its graphic artist's passing their work off as a photograph. Yes, they are wonderful visual displays but when the only item in the scene is an outline of an object and the rest if created, not sure thats a photo anymore. There should be a graphic art category if thats the case, not just digital dark room. There is a difference. My father, a professional photographer 30 years really dislikes the photo processing of images that currently is seen. I am starting to lean that way myself. I am myself working on lessing my use of PS and get more out of the use of my cameras. This site and the people that participate have such creative minds and talent. It's so diverse and truly wonderful. I have really learned just participating and observing. :)
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Sharon Day |
I found myself wanting to be more creative in Photoshop before getting a digital SLR. With my P&S I had trouble getting what I considered decent images so I often used a lot of effects to try and dress the photos up a little. I've never been into graphic art though. Just heavy Buzz and filters :o)!
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Jane M |
Sharon, initiating this thread and taking part in the lively debate that has come from it perhaps gives the impression that I'm a miserable photographer burdened by my participation in Better Photo! However this is far from the case. I am loving what I do and I enjoy the site. I don't think I could have developed so fast without it. I think your point about BP from a business point of view is very good but remember that presuming they make most money from courses who is most likely to take the courses? Beginners - hence the need for a competition that attracts beginners and not just a battleground for established pros. I think competitors concerns about copying is justified. I don't have that sort of mentality...maybe I'm not competitiive enough! Still..I have a hankering to know f stops, lenses etc. Just something I need to do at this point in time and my guess is a few other folks out there may need to as well. Ah well,... if we were all of the same mindset on this site, life would be very boring indeed. BTW Great gallery you have there! One good thing about the forums for me is I get to see galleries I've missed!!
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KV Day |
lol I love the filters and find it fun, and have used and abused PS to death lol. My images are just not up to snuff with the pros. Maybe if I wore my glasses more (blind here) and sat closer to my monitor (I'm in a recliner with the monitor 3 feet away) might help! lol :)
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Sharon Day |
Jane, thanks for visiting my gallery and the nice compliment! I don't think anyone could visit your gallery and confuse you with a know nothing beginner either. You have a lot of wonderful people photos. Something I don't do at all so I always appreciate anyone who can work with people. I've learned a lot since joining BP too and I'm far from professional. Serious hobbyist would probably be a decent description of my abilities. There are still techniques in scenic photography I'd like to learn. I don't have a clue how photographers like Marc Adamus achieve the late day colorful scenes they do even though he's one of the photographers that detail aperture, shutter speeds and filters. I've been out in the field many times, and I'm aware the camera often records things our eyes don't see, but I've done my share of sunset pics and have never come close to what a few seem to capture on a nightly basis. Nowadays I just kinda take it as it comes :D.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Of course instructional books list settings. That's the reason why the writer made the book. An educational web site can very well do the same, by those that create the web site. That's why you take courses thru this web site. An educational web site dosen't mean the part that's open to the general public,(be it the free gallery, deluxe site, or the contest) is the part that you have to add settings. Providing a Q&A section is part of the educational idea. You provide a forum in the hopes that people with questions will get answers. And that's what it does. There are also instructional books available from the people involved with creating this site. The contest isn't a battleground for professionals. It's put in as a combination fun thing/marketing tool. A fun thing for those who frequent the site, or who bought deluxe sites. And also a way of attracting people to the site and getting new buyers. It's dominated by people who aren't professionals, regardless of skill or talent. Nobody's shooting the messenger. You want betterphoto to turn the suggestion of adding photo info into a criteria for not choosing contest entrants. And yes people are under no obligation to post on this site, like you said. But they are under no obligation to add photo info, and are under no obligation offer you assistance. But many will choose to. So if you feel a guideline should be enforced as a requirement, like you said, you're under no obligation to post on this site.
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Jane M |
Gregory - Whatever your opinions on listing settings with a photo the BP guidelines make it quite clear what they would LIKE you to do to help others. Every photo you enter you have to delete the request for that info! Until the judges start taking the guidelines into consideration when judging then there will not be an incentive for people with an attitude similar to yours to do so. I don't think they can ever OBLIGATE people to add the info becuase there are various good reasons why they might not have it at hand. Anyway I came across a photo today when comparing spider photos to mine where a relative newcomer had asked how to re-submit, yours was the first reply: "To re-submit you...just re-submit". If it was a joke I'm sure the original poster thought it hilariously pithy but it seems our attitudes towards helping people are obviously so different I think any further discussion would be a waste of time.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
I remember that. You don't have to do anything but resubmit a photo the same way you submitted it the first time. But there's plenty other questions that I've answered. Keep looking, you'll find them. The difference in our attitudes lies in other places. One is a guideline is not a rule or law, it's only a suggestion of one way to do something. You want it to be a rule to disqualify, or count against a contest submission. Two, I don't whine and think it's not fair because somebody didn't give details about a picture I admire if at the time I don't know how they did it. Three, when in some cases the results of somebody's particular photo may well be born out of several attempts at experimentation, their own imagination, and lots of trial and error, it's a lack a respect, and a sense of entitlement, and generally being spoiled to have anybody be required to say how just so you can duplicate it, or else go to some other site. So before any request for laws to get passed, did you ever try asking?
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Sharon Day |
Well Gregory, we've nearly come full circle now. Which brings us back to the reason a lot of members don't provide that info in their descriptions, namely copying especially if an image has won a medal. Has anyone noticed how many kids blowing bubbles have been entered lately? Anyone want to hazard a guess why that would be?
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Jane M |
Gregory & Sharon - Thanks for sharing your opinions, I think I am better understanding the mindeset of some people on here and why they might not share information. I'm sure if someone spent an inordinate amount of time on a photo they might become very possesive of the hard-learned techniques used to craft it, plus some people are very competitive. Personally I'm not concerned about sharing my techniques, for example I spelled out the exact steps halfway through this discussion: http://www.betterphoto.com/forms/discussionDetail.php?threadID=444928 I perhaps naively thought that was being in the spirit of this site. But maybe it's because I'm not a finalist calibre photographer so I don't have to solace myself with "imitation is the sincerest from of flattery" :-) Again personally, I think if I had a photo I didn't want to share any info about I'd enter it in another site that didn't express the same sharing, learning ethos as this site. Gregory, I have tried asking in the past, and have often received helpful replies. The problem is say for example I'm interested in which photos were shot using a macro lens, or how many people using an 85mm 1.2 lens shoot wide open, I can't feasibly email every single entrant asking what lens they used. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and happy shooting!
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Sharon Day |
Jane, I appreciate you understanding the "mindset" of people, including mine, but I'd like to explain it just a bit more without all the subleties and innunendo. I have been copied and yes, I am competative. Why enter a contest if not to compete? I have created a technique I stumbled upon after experimenting around. I think it's probably original. At least I've never seen anything exactly like it. I've explained in private emails to a couple of people how I accomplished my effect. So far the judges haven't seen fit to notice it, but until they do (or IF they do) I'm not giving up all the secrets to creating those images. I've never seen anyone photograph this particular subject in the same fashion I have and I really don't want to see someone else grab the idea, run with it then get all the glory. Call me selfish but that's just how I feel. As for basic information I do share most of that. I don't choose to list my lenses because I don't really feel it's anyone's business what equipment I own which by-the-way is fairly modest. As friendly as BP usually is it's still the internet :(. Happy shooting right back atcha!
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Jane M |
Sharon that's something else I hadn't thought of, if someone has expensive lenses they might not want to advertise the fact! Good luck with your technique too :-)
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Sharon Day |
Thanks, Jane! I think I'm the only one really impressed with my technique but I'm having fun with it LOL.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
You're still not getting that it's not about keeping secrets or being competitive. They might not feel like writing it in. And everybody should have that choice. And it's not being lazy. If can't take it upon yourself to find out some information about what perspective certain lenses have, and how to recognize them, don't expect everyone to be the initiator of that. You don't have to email every single person with a macro shot you see. You should be able to learn to recognize it. You don't have to know which exact photos are done with an 85 f/1.2 A 135 f/2.8, a 100 f/2 are all short telephotos with a wide apeture. They all have a general look. If you got an answer to a few emails about an 85 f/1.2, you should be able to recognize it. Look up the lens on Canon's or Nikon's website and look at sample photos. Whatever technique you're talking about you put in your discussion, if you would've left it out, I doubt anybody would be bothered by it. If they wanted to know what it was, they would ask you. That's why there's a Q&A section. That's why there's a "discuss this photo" link. That's why there's a contact link to photos.
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Sharon Day |
Hey Gregory, actually a few people have asked me for detailed instructions on how to duplicate the special effect technique I stumbled upon. All I put in my description was what the subject was because it wasn't really obvious I don't think. Maybe that was too much info if I wanted to keep the technique to myself?? There's a lot of curious minds here at BP and I'm one of them. Shoot, if I want to know something I email them, but I don't work and I have the time to do that ;)! Sometimes they answer and sometimes not. If they don't answer and I really want to know I do what you've suggested a few times...I dig it out myself. It's not as easy but the info is out there. SOMETIMES I refuse to ask. I get satisfaction out of figuring things out myself occasionally. Not often mind you, but occasionally ;)!
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Jane M |
Sharon - if you're talking about your technique of capturing the movement of the flowers with a long shutter release while on a tripod I think you've already described it more than enough for people to go off and experiment themselves. It's a beautiful effect and I'm sure it takes some fine tuning to get the right amount of blur and movement for the effect whilst keeping a recognisable image. At any rate they are fantastic photos and good luck with them.
Although "nowhere near as important", which is fair enough, it is listed as a criteria they are judged on. So if they had two equal images, they are saying the one with a better technical description (ie f-stop, etc) would win. So that's what they are SAYING they do, I'm wondering from the preponderence of photos with no technical info whether they actually do. I'm saying they should do what they say or re-phrase the guidelines. It sounds like you have a beef with that particular judging criterion. And if you say they are just "guidelines" then I can say "Look Sharp" is just a guideline and obviously doesn't influence the judges either.
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Sharon Day |
Hi Jane, it's not the long shutter speed with flowers. While those are fun to do there's really nothing different about them. Those are more about experiementing which makes digital nice. If I took as many photos with film trying to get just the right one I'd be broke by now.
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KV Day |
Have to keep in mind, this is a "contest", not just people putting up images for fun. Just not going to happen especially with so many entries now. I can tell most that have work on them, you just learn to see it over time. I can spot a flood filter a mile away. Anyway, have a great week all!
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Rachel Tabron |
Hello, In response to the main question, I was not a professional photographer when I first signed up with BP. I don't feel that now that I am, I have to stop entering contests. I shoot film and honeslty never remember what exactly I exposed at by the time I get it back. I can only list the kind of film it was, etc. In the BP classes is where I list most detail since those are assignments and I usually am taking notes while shooting. Anyone who emails me with questions on what I did, I have no problem providing whatever I can.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
Sharon, I was talking about what Jane M. said in my response that started with not getting it. Jane M., you've conveniently been selective with pulling quotes. First, you may not be getting what comprehensive means. Also, you're just now acknowledging they stated "Although these words are no where near as important as the image itself..." Interesting choice of words. "no where near as important" Third, you also seemed to have not noticed that they seem to list these guidelines in a descending order. They listed the section on sharpness in the top two, and the section on perfect exposure afterwards. While they point out for stated reasons that perfect exposure takes a back seat to sharpness. And hell yeah "look sharp" is a guideline. Because if it weren't, it'd be a rule and you wouldn't have a photo that used blur to show motion or to create a mood. And they say in list of guidelines that blur can add to a photo. And are you really that lost that you're not seeing that talking about sharpness is really about what makes a good photo, not a good half paragraph below the photo? I don't have a beef with their judging criteria. And I haven't indicated that I did. The problem is the cry babies who always need to have something changed, redirected, because they get envious of somebody's finalist tag. There always needs to be a new category. A certain number or percentage of finalist, because if you don't, poor dear will get discourage. So now, somebody shouldn't get a finalist tag unless they tell you exactly how to do the same picture because you don't have your own.
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Jane M |
Gregory - you have some very interesting opinions and interpretations, it's been a pleasure hearing them voiced in such a polite manner.
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Sarah J. Thexton |
I am a total novice with my first SLR camera and I ahve not got a clue about the majority of the settings. Often I will change something to experiment and by the time I get home I have not got a clue what I have done. If I see a picture that I really like I would contact that person and ask what they did. As Sharon said above what makes digital so much fun is the experimentation. I dont understand the whole copying thing. For me to take a picture it has to be mine and it has to appeal to me. I really admire the bubble blowing children but it is not something that I want to do. Occassionally I will see a tone or a certain type of picture and it may give me and idea for something to try but why would anyone try to recreate someone elses picture. Doesn't that lose the creative element. I joined this place because there is so much to learn here and people are tolerant and helpful with a beginner like me. I enjoy the competition as it makes it fun to have an objective every day.
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Sharon Day |
Gregory, thanks for the nice big type! Sarah, you've explained perfectly why I enjoy the contest too, "I enjoy the competition as it makes it fun to have an objective every day."
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Sarah J. Thexton |
Sharon we have jsust moved to Florida from South Africa and I miss home dreadfully. Now that I have the photography it makes me get out and take pictures. I have taken out three annual passes to local parks (Butterfly World, Parrot Jungle and Flamingo Gardens) and now I hve no excuse but to get out there and try to take better pictures each time.
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Sharon Day |
Rachel, I've read your response several times and I'm not quite sure what this statement means, "In response to the main question, I was not a professional photographer when I first signed up with BP. I don't feel that now that I am, I have to stop entering contests." You do not have to be a professional photographer OR even follow all the guidelines religiously to enter the contest here. I hope this isn't what you are referring to. Enter, enjoy the community and HAVE FUN! Sarah, I feel for you moving. I have always thought I'd enjoy living in Florida. I hope you get settled in soon.
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Jane M |
Rachel, I don't think anyone ever said professionals shouldn't enter, at least not me!
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Brendan Knell |
Sharon, I don't know if you've figured it out by now or not, so I'll try and explain what I got out of it. Sarah said that when she joined here she wasn't a pro. Now she is a pro, and doesn't think that because she's a pro, that she shouldn't be able to enter the contest.
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Jane M |
Looking back I can see how Rachel mis-interpreted what I meant in my first post, I expressed it badly. What I meant was professionals who dump their portfolios into the contest without partaking in the community, though I think Chris B had the best attitude for that.
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Sharon Day |
Personally I really like competing against pros. It's really gratifying to snag a win when you know some of the pros were left holding a finalist ;)! My only pet peeve about the pros (or anyone) that enter the contest and choose not to be a part of the community is the total lack of gratitude some of them have for anyone taking the time to compliment their images. I realize anyone can get busy and forget to thank those who visited every single day, but to go through galleries where there's not one "thank you" on any entry rather tells me they don't even care whether they get compliments or not. Maybe I'll compliment anyway but when I do I don't really care that they are thankless :o)!
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Rachel Tabron |
the bad thing about typing is it doesn't come out the way you want to. I just read "I've noticed over these months that there are many more professional photographers taking part and many who don't really contribute to the community but submit excellent photographs with no information whatsoever and never add comments either" I was just saying when I wasn't in business I participated and now I am and I still participate. I've emailed quite a few pros and no response and some did. Luckily you have digital though :) I just finally made the switch. What a great thing!
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Sarah J. Thexton |
Just to rectify one thing. I joined 2 months ago when I was a total beginner and I still am a total beginner. I like seeing the pro pictures as it gives me something to aim for. Eery day that goes by I realise that I know even less than I thought I did ;-)
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Rachel Tabron |
Me too. I've learned a ton on this site. Especially the BP class I just took and reading the FAQ's.
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Jane M |
I agree, pros are usally pros because they are very good, the more that enter the higher the standard and the more we all learn!
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Jane M |
On a related note of following the guidelines, how important do people think the "be honest" guideline to disclose all major photoshop manipulations is? ( it's listed below the extra info guideline ;-) ). For one it would help beginners determine what can be done straight from the camera. Should an image taken with genuine panning be rated more highly than the exact same image done with motion blur filter? Do you think the judges discriminate? If someone enters a photo with motion blur filter and the judges praise it for great panning technique and place it should the photographer have revealed the motion blur filter and should it have been placed? I know it can't be enforced but do people think the "be honest" guideline should be followed or is the final image everything? I know the guidelines are the judging criteria as well but I'm not so sure from their comments in the judges forum whether the judges always spot the use of a filter. Would it bother you if someone's non-disclosed flood filter reflection shot just pipped to first place your genuine reflection shot which you'd waded into malaria-infested shallows to obtain? :-)
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Irene Troy |
Jane – Perhaps I am misreading what you are suggesting; do you think that the use of Photoshop is something that a photographer should be ashamed of or that should be immediately disclosed by the shooter? For years photographers have been manipulating images in the traditional darkroom. If you study the work of some of the masters of early photography you will note that knowledge of chemicals was essential in order to create an image that was truly great. The great Ansel Adams often completely altered an image once it was in the darkroom and even taught that an image was not finalized until it left the darkroom. However, I never saw an image created by Adams or any of the other masters that mentioned the use of darkroom tools. Today we have the option of developing our images using non-chemical tools such as Photoshop. Photoshop is a powerful tool that can help turn an image into something special; however, for all its power even PS cannot think for the photographer. Without a creative spark and without the willingness to work at making the best possible image in the field there is little that PS can do for you. You can correct exposure, but you cannot correct a poor composition or an unimaginative one. I admit to the use of Photoshop and do not feel that I need to tell everyone just what I did in PS. frankly; half the time I don’t know what I am doing since I am relatively new to the software. When I view a great image I rarely wonder what the photographer did in the field and what was done in the darkroom – traditional or digital. If I can spot the use of PS it often means that there is something about the image that seems unreal or at least a little off. When I view contest winners all I see is some wonderful images and while I enjoy knowing how someone produced the image, I don’t feel that it is their responsibility to teach me how to make a similar image. After a couple of years on this site and several BP classes I have begun to see for myself how winning images are made and if I want some more explanation I will e-mail the photographer. Most respond and if someone doesn’t…well, that’s their right. Learning photography, like most important things, is a long process and, at least as far as I can tell, there are no short cuts; just hard work, lots of failures and a few successes until you feel comfortable with what you manage to produce at least some of the time.
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Jane M |
Irene - I don't think a photographer ahould be ashamed of good Photoshop technique, quite the opposite! Personally I think it is just the final image that matters, however it was achieved. I don't think the guidelines are asking that the photoshop steps taken have to be spelled out, just asking for a general statement that major manipulation has taken place. I wonder why they ask for that?
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Brendan Knell |
Irene, I think that Jane was just wanting people to say in the description that there has been some major/minor PS'ing done. Not exactly what they did, step by step. If you reread her post, she says: "For one it would help beginners determine what can be done straight from the camera." I know there are a ton of beginers, looking through the pro's galleries, and they are probably getting discouraged, because they think that what is in these galleries came straight from the camera. So, if you just said, "Photoshoped" that would help a lot of peole.
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Sharon Day |
"Should an image taken with genuine panning be rated more highly than the exact same image done with motion blur filter? Do you think the judges discriminate? If someone enters a photo with motion blur filter and the judges praise it for great panning technique and place it should the photographer have revealed the motion blur filter and should it have been placed?" Jane, I believe a panned shot should rate higher than a PS filter. It takes more skill panning a subject than it does to create the effect in PS. I absolutely believe the judges discriminate! Isn't that what judges do when judging contests? I also think they are professionals and can tell if a photo is actually panned or PSed. Did that scenario really happen of was it just an example? I can tell a panned shot from a PSed one most of the time. I think most PS manipulation is fairly obvious and the judges should be able to tell it too. I'd sure like to see the shot referenced if it's not an example. Guess I better start reading the judges discussions again. Last time I went through them all I saw was "great shot" kind of comments which is probably more than they have time for.
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Jane M |
Sharon - I sent you examples of what I suspect are undeclared major pp by email as I don't like to single anyone out in a public forum. The guidelines/judging-criteria say that the judges don't discriminate against photoshopping.
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- Gregory LaGrange Contact Gregory LaGrange Gregory LaGrange's Gallery |
You might want to rethink who is actually very competitive.
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Irene Troy |
When I first started here approx. 2 years ago, I would go through some of the galleries and feel ‘wow, I’ll never be able to achieve that level of competence with my camera’. Sometimes I thought that what I needed was a better camera or to learn PS. But, even then, I never looked at images and wondered if the effect was achieved via PS, traditional darkroom or in the field. I get discouraged when my images do not come close to the quality of many I see here; however, all that does is push me to learn more, not to ask that other people give me more info. I’d love it if everyone who posted images included info on exposure, lenses and other pertinent facts! But, I really do feel that it is my responsibility to learn the skills and not someone else’s responsibility to tell me how they did what they did. As to the question of whether a judge should discriminate between an image made entirely in the field and one made in the darkroom – digital or traditional- I’m sure they already do! A well made image is just that; WELL MADE! What happens in the traditional darkroom or the digital “darkroom” only serves to make a decent image better; it does not and will never replace creative skill and outlook.
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Jane M |
Gregory - FYI the examples aren't in categories I enter into so it makes no difference to my chances if I were that way inclined. I'm thinking more along the lines Brendan mentioned but instead of thinking about helping beginners you always seem to jump to more selfish conclusions. Also I've not really voiced too much of an opinion on this, just put it up for discussion to get others opinions.
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Sharon Day |
Jane, I think by virtue of the fact they say in the guidelines they don't discriminate against PS means that it doesn't matter how much PS an image has. I believe it mentions somewhere they can go in any category too. I thought you meant discriminate while judging. Irene, you have a gorgeous gallery!!! I love your scenics! N&L is a very difficult category to snag a finalist in. I do not take the kind of scenery photos that the judges are attracted to, but I still enter hoping one will sneak past :D.
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Irene Troy |
Thank you, Sharon! Actually, I have never entered the contests! I look at the submissions from time to time and think 'gee...what chance do I have?' I'm pretty non-competative although I do take pride in my work and keep hoping to get better. Contests are not really my 'thing'. Incidently, to anyone else: this is not meant as a comment upon the virtue of entering contests - it's just me.
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chrisbudny.com - Chris Budny Contact Chris Budny Chris Budny's Gallery |
Thing or not, I agree with Sharon; you've got some really beautiful work in your gallery! Your mountain shots are gorgeous!
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Jane M |
Well I started this way-too-long thread so I'll attempt to put it to bed :-) My one wish is that if at all possible people try to follow the BP guidelines, I'm sure they have good reasons for them and I think they are invaluable for beginners. Being a recent beginner myself I am keenly aware of the initial steep learning curve. This discussion has opened my eyes to a number of reasons why certain of the guidelines can't be obligatory and hard for the BP judges to enforce, I'm sure just looking at the images takes up all their time without anything ancillary! Thanks to everyone who shared their insights on this thread and educated me and hopefully some others! :-)
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Nobu Nagase |
I agree with Jane that I would like to see more tech details and photo editing process on many images I am drawn to. (...many times I am guilty of not writing the details myself, but because I am still a beginner, I say to myself, how in the world my data would help anyone else...?) Before BP, I was on another site (not a contest site) where many photographers detailed the tech details. I have learned so much from them. Great photographers on that site were always willing to share their knowledge and technical skills. Most people are here for the monthly contest, and they want to win... In my opinion, this is the reason for not divulging the tech details and photo editing process. (seret recipes kind of thing) But it is true that many people are friendly and extremely supportive as you saw in this thread. If you ask, you will receive answers.
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Irene Troy |
I can’t speak for anyone else but me; however, by my experiences in the classes I have taken here at BP, I’d have to dispute that comment that most of the people are here for the contest. In fact, again I may be mistaken, but, I would bet that the staff here at BP would argue that a good number of members never enter the contests and are here to either take a class or to learn from others via these forums. I have also visited other photography sites. I considered some other learning sites for classes, but keep coming back to BP because the classes here are excellent and just challenging enough to push me beyond my self-imposed limits. As to the idea that people do not post the tech info on their images because of fear that someone else will steal their ideas and knowledge: preposterous! I really sincerely doubt that anyone is that paranoid or secretive. I suspect that the real reasons why people fail to include tech data is (a) they cannot remember what their exposures were or which lens they used – easily accessed info with digital, not so easy with film; (b) they either don’t have or don’t take the time to enter this info; (c) they simply forget. BTW: at least in my experience, knowing how someone else created a great image does not mean that you will create the same type image. IMHO this idea goes along with the idea that a better camera will automatically make you a better photographer. Would I like people to give more info on their images? Sure, but some will and some won’t and that is just the way it will always be here or anywhere else.
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Nobu Nagase |
You certainly have a beautiful collection of landscape and wildlife phtographs in your gallelry, Irene! I am envious of your wildlife photos. I have always loved wildlife and my motivation for doing photography was to capture what I love, wildlife... but so far, I have none... because I still do not have the lens (and lenses) I need to capture the wildlife as in natural habitat.
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