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BetterPhoto Q&A
Category: New Answers

Photography Question 

Stephanie Meyer 		 

Canon20D vs. Nikon D200


I want to get a digital slr for my photography, I shoot freelance and I am starting to really push my business but I want to go digital. I have a Nikon N80 35mm so I was looking at the Nikon D200 and D70s but then I say the Canon 20D which are all with in price range. I was wondering if the canon 20D is going to be as good as the Nikon D200 and/ also if I could get away with the D70s I shoot portraits events, family, people and scenery shots. I want the best quality that $2000.00 or less can get me.


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February 02, 2006

 

Christopher A. Vedros 		  If you already have a Nikon SLR, your first consideration should be if you have Nikon mount lenses that you want to continue using. If you have already invested money in lenses for your Nikon, it may be a better investment for you to stick with Nikon.

Chris


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February 02, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		 
 
 
That's why I was considering Nikon Do you have expierence with either the D200 or the D70s?


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February 02, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  Sorry didn't mean to make the responce sound like that what I meant was yes I have Nikon gear and I thought I would like something that I can use the gear on. However I did see the canon 20D was 8 mega pixels and about the same price as a Nikon D70s which is why I thought about the canon but I don't have expierence with canon so I was Just wandering about it.


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February 02, 2006

 

Christopher A. Vedros 		  No, I don't have any first-hand experience with Nikons, I use Canon.

The image-quality difference between the 8MP Canon 20D and the 6MP Nikon D70 will not be very much, since they have similarly-sized sensors.

In contrast, the image-quality difference between a 6MP point&shoot and a 6MP dSLR will be much more noticeable, since the dSLR has a much larger sensor.

You should look at the other features of the cameras to see if one has more of the things you would be looking for.


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February 02, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  right, I guess I just need to do more research on dslr's I don't know quite as much about Digital cameras.. Thanks for you input


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February 02, 2006

 

Debby A. Tabb 		  I have the Nikon D70 and love it.
it is light wieght and made to fit the photographers hand-really go to any local camera store and hold the two.
easy to operate and very user friendly.
and NOT TO OPEN a BIG can of worms:
But after working with the Cannon 20D for a company I was consulting for I am not impressed with it at all
(really I am a Cannon lover from way back!but....)
there were many issues, and other then list them all here- just serach the Q&A here for others who have had issues with them.
I think Chris is very right and giving you good advise-if you have a lot invested in a spacific companies equiptment and then be very careful about the idea of changing over to another-it MAY be costly with not a huge difference in Valuble results.
I have seen some very valuble testing done by our local Calumet store ( I had posted those on a thread and of couse there were some fighters-just posted what I saw)
But from what I SAW I will probubly keep buying the D70.
at least the 2 more I need.
I do hope this helps,
Debby


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February 03, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  Thanks both of you ... Good things to think about and I am happy to hear, Debby, that you have good things to say about your D70... I think I will stick with NIKON because I do love Nikon so that would make sense. I think after checking out the D70s and D200 side by side (specs) I am going to go with th D70s because It offers what I need and the price is better. The D200 Looks great, with a few better features, but I am going to start with the D70s.. I can't wait to get it. Is there any thing I need to get when I get the camera.??? Extra stuff you need with a digital slr?


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February 03, 2006

 

Debby A. Tabb 		  Just a memory card and Maybe a flash.

for memory cards go to ebay, much cheaper. I prefer the quality in Luxar 40x and up. and the Sandisk Extreem.

also, if you do go with the D70s,and you USE studio lights you will need a AS-15 for your sync.

As far as flash I use the SB800/SB600 these work very well together and you can find out more about Nikons Creative Light system on the Nikon Web Site.

here is a dealer I have used and told others about with good results :
the kit here $1298.00
with the 3 lens, tripods, ect.
you may not need this-but at the time the price with all this stuff was still the best, so what I did not want I sold on Ebay.
Best of luck to you,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nikon-D70-Digital-SLR-3-Pro-Lenes-3000-EXTRAS-NEW_W0QQitemZ7585987357QQcategoryZ43456QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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February 03, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  Is th AS-15 the remote cord? I have one SB600 I will eventually get more. So the memory card how important are the types and sizes .... would a 512 mb work? do they have anything to do with speed? Thanks


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February 03, 2006

 

Debby A. Tabb 		  the AS-15 supplys you a sync port to the D70 : Nikon blew it on that one,lol.

the SB600 is great for your Digital.

ANd yes the 40X and up tells you this is a faster capture card.
The Extreem is a very quick card-I have 4 GIG cards for weddings.
The Extreem is the one I WILL always have in my camera at the time of service.
the others are for before and after when I can pose or re-pose things.
I hope this helps,
Debby


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February 03, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  Debby, do you think I will need the 18/70 lens? that comes with it.. I have a regular Nikon AF 23-80 (i believe) Do you think that will be wide enofe fo porturature.? or could I maybe wait? I know the Reg lenses are increased 1.5x. whats your expierence ?


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February 03, 2006

 

Debby A. Tabb 		  For Portraits I like my 100mm best.

the wide angle adaptor they give you in that kit-I didn't have a need for that, so I put it on ebay and sold it for $80.00 then found a tamaron 200mm wideangle lens and won that auction for $100.00.
So for me, I just keep trading on ebay, until I get what I need for the system I want.
I hope this helps,
Debby

Oh and all the upgrades for the D70-to the D70s are available through the Nikon websight.
I just spoke to a rep today about learning materiales for the workshops Liza and I are giving. and I asked him about these upgrades.
He also said it takes all of 5 mins.


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February 03, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  thanks....


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February 03, 2006

 

Sandra 		  Hey Stephanie,
I think you'll be VERY HAPPY with the Nikon d70, It's a great camera.

Hey Debby,
Are you and Liza going to teach something on nikon at the workshop?


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February 03, 2006

 

Justin G. 		  aaahhhh its a nikon convention! intruder alert, intruder alert.

sorry, I know i'm lame. ;-)


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February 03, 2006

 

Justin G. 		 


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February 03, 2006

 

Debby A. Tabb 		  JUSTIN, HOW DO YOU DO THAT!!!!!!!I wish you could teach me some of this stuff!

Sandra,
no probubly not, there won't be time.
but the companies that are supplying all of you info at the workshops are :
Photgenic, photoflex,Nikon digital and film and Cannon digital and film.
and I am still waiting on more.
I am so excited 2 boxes of materials came today!!!


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February 03, 2006

 

Sandra 		  Thanks Debby,
Have ya'll come up with dates in houston or dallas?


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February 03, 2006

 

Debby A. Tabb 		  actually Sandra,
I was just talking to Laura about that.
we were thinking of March 18th and 19th for the Houston workshop.
please let Laura or I know what you think ok.
We were just trying to get as many workshops done as we can before Easter in hopes fo helping everybody improve thier sales.

I do hope we can see ya!
it looks as if this class will already be 1/2 full. yeah!!


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February 03, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  Debby,
I am in Colorado I would like to get into some workshops... how do I go about finding out about them.. I am assuming you stay in your own state. Thanks for all your input.
Thanks Sandra... I am really feeling good about my upcomming purchase now.


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February 04, 2006

 

Debby A. Tabb 		  good morning Stephanie,
No Actually Liza and I come to your towns, 1 days studio operationas and posing and the other is Photoshop and templetes.
the studio Photographer thread has a map ( look on thetop question part down under the listing of all 15 threads-then there is the map address.
Pat is trying to put one together in Utah.
We would love to have your join us.


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February 04, 2006

 

Pete H 		  Hi Stephanie;

Your question kinda' depends on the use the camera will receive.

First; the D-70 is a great camera, I have mostly praise for it.
The Canon 20D is equally as good, and a little better in build quality.
The new D-200 (at 10mp) is beginning to approach a true (pro) camera; not so much in it's resolution, but in better build quality (ring seals, metal body) etc.... and ergonomics. (button layouts.)

If you are a light to moderate user, shooting maybe less than 100 shots/day, any of the above will be great.

I have a D-70 which is now my prime backup. I recently purchased the Nikon D2x. Lately I've been shooting a ton in studio and outdoors.
The D2x absolutely rocks! There are a million reasons why it does so, but you can read a review. It's not in the same class as the cameras you mention, especially in it's cost. Yikes!
My primary reason in purchasing one was durability and longevity.
Outdoor shooting (if you do a lot) can be quite rough on any camera, and I don't always have time to "baby" my cameras. I'm a "slingshooter" when outdoors..cameras slung over my shoulder and getting banged around. The D-70, while a great camera, will not stand up to much abuse.
The D-200 is also considerably more robust than the D-70.

Hope that helps a little,

All the best,

Pete


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February 04, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  Thanks Pete... I will probably be putting the camera through a lot.. I would absolutly love to go with the Dx2, unfortunatly I need to make the money for that kind of purchase... Maybe next year. I also would like the D200 but I guess I have decide on the D70s due to cost, I really need a digital now to start learning how to shoot digitally... (a starter camera I guess) If I begin to get enofe business I will definatly up grade sounds like I will need that durability someday. Thanks SOO much for your knowledge. It's espically nice to know that I may need to be slightly careful with the D70s THanks...


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February 04, 2006

 

Debby A. Tabb 		  Well, I do differ a bit,
I shoot exclusively now with the D70's .
and they are rugged little camera and to my belif every bit as durable as any other Nikon made.
aagin, I use them as a matter of cost as well.Why when I get the wonderful quaility I get from a camera in this price range , would I want to double my replacement cost.
I could see it if the others gave me real Noticable differentces or offered me a lot more options that would make them a real service.
I can not recommend that someone put them selfs in real debt, when thier is a more affordable optition.
This said with all due respect.
Debby
* I always suggest that if in doubt- look in mine and others galleries to see what is an dcan be done with the camera's you are intrested in.


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February 04, 2006

 

Pete H 		  Hmmm?

"and they are rugged little camera and to my belif every bit as durable as any other Nikon made."

Hate to differ with ya Deb, but the prosumer levels are not in the same ball park as far as durability and quality control is concerned.
The D-70's body is polycarbonate in it's construction. The Pro level Nikons are Magnesium..BIG difference.
The shutter material on the pro levels are of superior material and design.
They will last longer.
The D-70 is NOT sealed against dirt in high dust and dirt environments.
The pro level Nikons are.

The processing algorithm is superior in pro level Nikons..The auto focus is superior.

The list is actually long, but I hope you see the diff.

I'm not slamming the D-70 (I have one and love it)..it is just not suitable for the rough & tumble life of press shooters, wildlife shooters, even studio people who need 5 fps or better for magazine shoots who have hi speed cycle strobes... etc..or anyone who uses it in intense shooting environs. I do not expect my D-70 to be alive 2 yrs from now if I continue to use it the way I must.

Believe me Deb, there is a reason for the price tag on the Pro level cams.


All the best,

Pete


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February 04, 2006

 

Debby A. Tabb 		  Pete,
with all due respect again,
This is where I wish people would really read and give input based on the needs of the person asking the question.
The person who wrote this question is talented and intrested and "starting to push her business"
Not with a Magazine or the press.
I have suggested this because in her price range this would be a good look.
I use this camera for weddings and high valume Portraiture.
I have yet to take this camera into the shop for anything ,even cleaning.
the 20D (I was useing to trian Photographers with for a company I cunsulted for )went in after 2 weeks shooting.
n so this has all been my opinion from reading the question and experiance with both modles she was looking at.
Again just my opinion.


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February 04, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  From what I am getting from you both is that the D70s is a good camera. I appriciate the advice you both gave me :) Thanks Guys... Steph


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February 04, 2006

 

Debby A. Tabb 		  and also,
iI have a friend who uses the 20D in his High Valume Hollywood studio.
He relies on the 20D for Very High Profile clients-all studio work.

So to each his own, but he agrees with me.
We can't all start or sometimes conduct our buinesses with "the best"
But we instead use the "Best" for our needs As Professionals WE ARE.


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February 04, 2006

 

Pete H 		  I am not arguing that the D-70 is a poor choice. It IS a fine camera.
So many people are in agreement on this.

My posting was simply to add, inform and educate in another area.
Stephanie wrote "push my business..."

Now to some that means perhaps weekend wedding shoots..to others it could mean 500 to 1000 frames per day! In the latter case, buying the D-70 is akin to putting bias ply tires on a high performance car..you will be replacing them soon, so why not get the right tires?
Again, not knowing Stephanie's needs and/or criteria, I was hoping to simply shed light in another area she may wish to consider.
She said $2,000..Get the D-200!

I wish the D-200 was out when I purchased my D-70, for that is the route I would have taken and most likely not "forced" to buy the D2x.
I know the D2x is expensive; believe me, my wallet is still begging for mercy! LOL..but the D-200 IS considerably more robust than the D-70.
There is not a reviewer out there who will disagree with that statement.


Stephanie, If..If you have $2,000; I'd advise you to go with the D-200..Not so much for the MP increase, (6 to 10) is not really all that great of a jump), but it will stand up to a lot of day to day abuse.. which by the way IS cumulative on ANY mechanical device.
If you intend to keep the cam on a tripod in the studio 90% of the time, then nearly ANY DSLR is fine.

Don't get caught up in the megapixel game. Every year the MP's will come down in price. A quality built camera retains it's value..Just take a look at the Nikon F5 HP or F6..still pricey!
The N80 and N90's can be had for a song..both are 35mm, but the "F" versions are built like tanks!

Any 6MP camera, when in the hands of a knowledgable shooter can produce stunning shots.

There are pluses and minuses to every buying decision, being informed aids in the decision.

If you have a tech bend, I'd highly recommend Phil Askey or Ken Rockwell's web site.


All the best,

Pete



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February 04, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  I now have two more concerns ... My two biggest concerns are print quality of the photos (How do they compare to 35mm film prints) and archival of the digital files (will the quality stay the same over time) I keep hearing conflicting information from differnt places. A saleman told me from(B&H Photo, NY) that the digital will not compare to the qulaity of prints my 35mm film camera produces. he also said that the jpegs lose informaiton every time you open them. Just wondering what you guys might know about this. Because someone else told me just the oppisite from what he said. I am now very confused. He basicly talked me out of a sale (which is very odd) Pete right now I mostly shot portraits outside.... and Scenery(for myself) But have shot events and some weddings and I am going take more wedding jobs with in the year. As of today it is not an every day job but I am hoping to push it in that direction.


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February 08, 2006

 

Christopher A. Vedros 		  Stephanie,
I'll answer your second question first, because it's easier.

I've heard this myth about JPEG files repeated quite a few times, I've even seen it printed in an otherwise very informative book on digital photography. This doesn't change the fact that it is incorrect. You can open a JPEG file in an image viewer or image editor over and over and over again, and it will NOT change the file or LOSE any image information. A JPEG file will only change if you SAVE it again from an image editing program. When a JPEG file is saved, it is compressed, which causes some data to be lost, and eventually can visibly degrade the image quality.

Actually, it doesn't have to be as bad as it sounds. Good imgage editing programs will let you adjust the amount of compression that is used when saving a JPEG. If you use the least amount of compression, you will minimize the buildup of image degradation.

Another solution is to use an uncompressed file format like RAW or TIFF for your image editing, and only save the final product to JPEG if you need a JPEG.

Chris


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February 08, 2006

 

Debby A. Tabb 		  Thank you Chris!!!!
I had heard this and not knowing for sure have always burned a
"Orignial Disk" set that a side then burned another to use.
I really do thank you for this information.
have a great evening,
Debby


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February 08, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  Thank you, Chris, that puts it in perspective for me ... I was a little lost at first, but that makes sence. Thank you .... Steph


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February 08, 2006

 

Piotr M. Organa 		  I actually dropped my D70s and broke the lens mount. It is so amazingly fragile. Beware! Relatively easy to repair, but expensive. Go for tougher stuff and more megapixels, is my advice.


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September 26, 2006

 

Andrew Laverghetta 		  In terms of how long files will last, I've heard conflicting ideas. It seems like most general/consumer cd-r's or maybe dvd-r's too will last maybe a few decades when stored properly while other, more expensive discs will last longer when stored properly. I think the big thing is the storage method. If it's stored out of the light in a somewhat calm place, cool and dry, it should last longer. I'm not sure if I may have something flipped there but just read the case or the paper that comes with them about storage.

In terms of quality, I think it depends on what you're doing. I've seen a lot of local senior portrait places who shoot digital and can make pretty large photos but I still believe that if you can put the work into it, there's definitly more detail in a professional roll of 35mm ISO 100 or similar film. Now, what you're shooting has a bit to do with what you might want to use. If you're doing portraits and most of your work will be 8x10 and up to 11x14 (and smaller of course) digital should be fine as long as you use a good program to work with the files. Also, you can get a lot of info out of a digital file if you are very careful with your focus. For example, I started shooting portraits recently with my 20D and many of them seemed to seem a little out of focus even though I was shooting at f8 or f11 for better sharpness. I noticed that some of my photos looked great and incredibly sharp though compared to others. I started using the different autofocus points and not just the center one to focus on the eyes and recompose. That puts a lot more confidence in me. Soome I'm really hoping to take some shots of my girlfriend and have mpix.com print them 20x30 both so I have a photo of her that big :) and so I can see the quality that I can get out of my 20D.

Also, just to add my opinion, I dont' like Nikons, the menu's, or the way that the camera is set up :) I much prefer the Canon because it seems more straight forward to me :)

I assume you've made your decision by now. I believe whichever decision you make will result in great images as long as you are careful with your technique. If I were you though, I would go with the D200 as well, not because of the higher resolution as much (though it would be better) but because it's closer to a pro camera as Pete was mentioning.

Andrew


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September 28, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		 
 
 
Thanks for your input I did end up with the Nikon D70s because Thats all I could afford I am pretty happy with it but still working on learning. thanks


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September 29, 2006

 

Stephanie Meyer 		  Thanks for your input I did end up with the Nikon D70s because Thats all I could afford I am pretty happy with it but still working on learning. thanks


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September 29, 2006

 

W. 		  The resolution of 100 ISO 35mm film is about equivalent to 10.5 million pixels. So any digicam with less than that obviously has less resolution (detail) than 35mm film. It means you can not blow them up as big.

However, 8 megapixel images can be printed at 20"x16" size, with a print quality (resolution/detail) equal to a same sized print from 35mm film.
Ask yourself how often you REALLY need prints bigger than that!


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September 29, 2006

 

Andrew Laverghetta 		  10.5 million pixels is crap, no offense, but there was a test some time back comparing the Canon EOS 1Ds Mark II (which is 16.3MP) to ISO 200 film, consumer grade I believe. They both used the same 50mm f1.4 lens and a pro body for the 35mm (though the lens is the only thing that mattered here) and the 16.3 barely squeezed past the ISO 200 film which as I said, was consumer grade film, Kodak Gold. Remember also that it's nearly impossible to get the same quality from any scan as is inherent in the first generation image (the film itself) as if it was enlarged directly with a dicro enlarger and a good lens.

I realize there isn't that much difference between 10.5 and 16.3 similar to the difference between 8 and 10 or 6 and 8 as we've seen in previous models from both Canon and Nikon but I believe 16.3 is barely more than ISO 200 Kodak Gold.

Though this isn't the place to discuss that.

Stephanie, congrats on your decision! You'll definitly be pleased and we look forward to seeing your pics!

PS, I just had to get that part about the film/digital in there, though I do realize there is a margin of error or something like that in anything that has such a different work flow. Also, when it comes to enlarging I believe that how big you want to enlarge or how big you want to print has to do with what you are willing to accept. Mainly how sharp, how much noise or how much grain you want to show. I saw an ISO3200 shot from TMax p3200 35mm film of a basketball player dunking a ball and it looked so great that nobody could complain about the grain.

Thanks for listening if you made it this far! :)


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October 01, 2006

 
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