BetterPhoto Q&A
Category: New Questions

Photography Question 
Jennifer W
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/26/2005
 

amateur commenting on experts' photos


From what I understand, the way to get comments on one's photos is to comment on other's photos. That seems only fair. But what about those of us who are beginners compared to others of you who are quite expert? It seems silly for me to say "that's a great photo!" or whatever to someone like Bob Cournoyer or Debby Tabb ...just to name two photographer's I've seen post here and who have galleries I love. Certainly they are more aware of what makes a great photo than I am.

What do you experts think of relative beginners commenting on your photos? If you agree it doesn't make sense, how would you suggest we go about getting feedback? Or do you still appreciate getting feedback from people at my level?

Thanks so much.


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11/4/2005 9:08:57 PM

 
Nobu Nagase
BetterPhoto Member Since: 5/31/2003
  Friendly praises are always appreciated by people on this site, Jennifer.


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11/4/2005 9:41:11 PM

 
Jennifer W
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/26/2005
  Thanks for the response, Nobi... Wow, just looked at your gallery. I could spend hours offering you friendly praises on your photos! :) They're incredible.


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11/4/2005 9:48:01 PM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  Jennifer, as Nobi says, friendly praise is always appreciated. When you give praise, you are coming from your own perspective. Everyone comes from their own point of view with their own background and influences. With that thought. It's completely ok to give more than just praise. You might want to mention what about the photo touches you, or even what doesn't. This allows the photographer to understand his/her viewers or even see something they didn't see themselves. You can also ask a question about why or how a photographer did what he/she did. By thinking this way you also develop your own critical thinking.


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11/5/2005 5:14:28 AM

 
Sherry S. Boles
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/28/2005
  Don't underestimate yourself...Just because you are an amateur, doesn't mean that you can't appreciate a good photo. Like Howie said, you may see something that the photographer didn't expect and that would let them look at their own photo from a different perspective.
However, It is unlikely that you will get any helpful critique through the comments here. The people are usually very nice and the comments are simply what they like. If you want critiques you might look for a website where critique is more of a priority or I've seen some people ask for critique on their gallery in the Q&A section here.


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11/5/2005 8:45:53 AM

 
Debbie Del Tejo
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/30/2005
  I agree......comments from anyone is appreciated.....we all have the eyes but not all are 20/20 vision.


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11/5/2005 9:56:48 AM

 
Bob Cournoyer
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/9/2003
Contact Bob
Bob's Gallery
bobslens.com
  Well, this 2 yr old photograhy buff is blushing quite heavily at the moment...Thanks, Jennifer. I, personally, am quite happy with my occassional "nice picture" comments that I get.
Anyway, as the above have all said, it's a subjective thing, 2 + 2 doesn't always equal 4. I try to mention specifics in a picture that I like and also comment on things in a pic that I don't like. I seldom, tho, get "thanks for the comment" notes back from the ones I **try** to constructively critique. But,then, I'm only sharing my view from my pinpoint speck spot on the earth....:-)
Make any sense?
Bob


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11/5/2005 10:25:57 AM

 
Jennifer W
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/26/2005
  Thanks, everyone! I'm quite enjoying learning lots on this site. And, Bob, two-years? Wow. If you were to try to constructively critique my photos, I'd definitely thank you. :)


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11/5/2005 10:30:25 AM

 
Kerby Pfrangle
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/19/2005
Contact Kerby
Kerby's Gallery
  Jennifer,

Just go through the images and if something seems special to you than say why you like the image.

Do you like it because of location, detail, colors, composition, mood. Does it make you have a special feeling inside and just express why you like like.

It has nothing to do with a professional ar amateur status.

It helps the photographer maybe see something in the image that he or she did not see before.

Kerby


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11/5/2005 10:34:03 AM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  It is interesting that the topic of 'constructive critique' versus 'nice photo' has arisen. I'm curious as to why BP is more of a nice photo place than one of people adding comments like Kerby has described, and even going further and giving critique. It happens occasionally but not terribly often.

It is what it is and BP is a fine gathering of people. There's certainly good critique in the BP internet classrooms but it doesn't seem to seep outside of that environment. We often hear how much people have learned. I certainly have learned a lot. Yet, I'd love to get constructive critique: both "this works well because…" and "this could have been better/different because…". I wonder if maybe it is something that could be fostered here.


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11/5/2005 11:22:11 AM

 
Bob Cournoyer
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/9/2003
Contact Bob
Bob's Gallery
bobslens.com
  Oh no! Don't you criticize my photo! Not my baby! Don't you be hurtin' my feelings! (Making the sign of the cross with my fingers to ward off evil)....:-)
Ninety percent (unsubstantiated) of all babies born are wrinkly and homely, but to their mothers, they are works of art.

Bob


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11/5/2005 11:42:35 AM

 
Joyce S. Bowley
BetterPhoto Member Since: 5/7/2004
  Well, as a serious amateur, I have to plead 'guilty' of the "great photo" comments and not too much of the "works well because..." or "could have been better..." comments. I certainly don't feel qualified to judge another person's work. Or maybe it's just the upbringing of "If you can't say anything nice...."

I have seen photos where I think "ooo, blown out sky" or "yikes, over/under-exposed" and not said anything.

As Howie says, we get this in the classroom critiques, and those comments are greatly appreciated.

When BetterPhoto sent out their recent survey, I had the idea they were looking at offering "critique for fee" services here; and that might be a good idea for those of us that want an honest opinion from someone who makes a living doing this. I have visited some of the other sites where some folks are brutal in their critiques.

Personally, I think I've gotten two responses to pictures I've put online here (outside of the courses I take). It would be nice to receive feedback on photos... at least the ones entered into the contest. But given the volume, that's probably not realistic.


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11/5/2005 11:45:41 AM

 
Jennifer W
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/26/2005
  Interesting discussion. I guess I assumed that this would be a place for "friendly critique" - not brutal, but honest - because there's a section called "Constructive Critique." :)

I guess I'm just someone who always wants critical feedback, even if I like a photo. I get enough "oh, that's great!" from friends and family. Maybe "this is a horrible photo and here's why" is too honest, but a "I like this aspect, but I would have liked...' could be really helpful. :)

Oh well, BP is what it is, and I like it anyway. :)


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11/5/2005 11:51:39 AM

 
Bob Cournoyer
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/9/2003
Contact Bob
Bob's Gallery
bobslens.com
  "guess I'm just someone who always wants critical feedback"

Yeah, that's partially the reason I've taken so many classes.
I was wondering if BP could offer a critiquing class or helpful hints....In classes I've taken, the instructor will pat me on the back, turn around and punch me in the gut, and I walk away smiling/wanting more......there's definitely a knack ...:-)


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11/5/2005 12:26:18 PM

 
Jennifer W
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/26/2005
  If I had an extra $300 lying around, I'd take a class from BP in a heartbeat. :) The cheaper classes offered "in real life" around here conflict with my schedule. :(

If a "critique for fee" service was offered, maybe they could make a low cost option with a limit on critiques/week? I'd love that.


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11/5/2005 3:24:51 PM

 
Tamera S. Phillips
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/28/2005
  I am always appreciative of constructive critique for my photo's. I'll be starting online classes in January and I decided to do that after the response I've gotten from so many great people on this site. I do comment on any photo that I really like whether it's someone like me or Bob Cournoyer. I think everyone enjoys positive feedback! Hope that helps.


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11/5/2005 3:26:05 PM

 
Maverick Creatives
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/1/2004
  Hi Jennifer.
If you were to really get involved exploring this site I'm sure you would find the answers, ideas and technical information you require to become a great photographer.
Many of us took a course or two for a "kick start" that led to a true love for photography. You don't need the $300 for a course really, it's just simpler that way. With a bit of patience you can find all the information you need right in front of you on this site. Enjoy and welcome.

ps. Bob Cournoyer and I were in our first better photo class together and he was always looking over my shoulder in class and copying my images, lol.

Regards
Gary


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11/5/2005 3:58:42 PM

 
Terry  R. Hatfield
BetterPhoto Member Since: 1/4/2003
  Most Photographers Are Frendly On BP!You Can Learn Alot From Everyones Images Just Jump In And Comment And Have Fun:-)


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11/5/2005 4:49:20 PM

 
Bob Cournoyer
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/9/2003
Contact Bob
Bob's Gallery
bobslens.com
  Okay, Gary, I thot that check would secure your silence, eh?....:-)

I'm off now to do a little macro work on my dinner before I eat it....

Bob


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11/5/2005 5:23:57 PM

 
Stan Lubach
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/1/2005
  The way I see it, there really is no such thing as a "perfect" picture. You can have a picture that it "technically" excellent, but the great photos are those that just plain appeal to us. It all comes down to individual tastes. Some pics may look great to me but not to anyone else. That doesn't make my opinion wrong---just different.
That said, as an amateur of modest skills, I would love for people to be critical of my work. You aren't necessarily telling me what's wrong, just how you would do it differently, and I appreciate that input. I guess my goal in photography is to make my work as appealing as possible to as many people as I can.


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11/5/2005 8:01:14 PM

 
Carolyn  M. Fletcher
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/6/2001
Contact Carolyn
Carolyn 's Gallery
PickYourShots.com
  We're all (or at least most of us are) "attention pigs" here! Can't have too many nice comments! We all love it!


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11/6/2005 4:29:30 AM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  It's interesting that many will have more critique. Unfortunately, even photos listed under constructive critique often have lots of friendly praise. Moreover, AFAIK once a photo gets listed as one or the other it is not possible to start a new discussion in the other category. It would be great to have two different comment options under pictures; one for friendly praise and one for constructive critique. This might increase the amount of cc that many of us will have! (BP staff, what do you think?!?)

Don't get me wrong. I love to have praise 'cause it shows me that others are looking at and enjoying my work. However, I also really want critique, from any level photographer. As said, we all have a worthwile perspective to offer: some more technical, others more artistic, and others more personal. Just my $.02.


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11/6/2005 5:16:18 AM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  Umm... that should have been, "...that many would like to have..." The rest of the post is also rather jumbled but hopefully understandable.


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11/6/2005 7:51:23 AM

 
Nicole Kessel   I like what I am hearing so far. I agree that everyone enjoys positive feedback and could benefit from some honest but polite critiques.

I have recieved a couple of critiques from others that really helped out simply by uploading the picture and adding it to the 'critique' discussions. But, they don't get as much attention as you would think.

I would love it if BP did critiques but, it would have to be fairly inexpensive for me to use it.


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11/6/2005 9:52:51 AM

 
Diane Dupuis
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/27/2003
  I know what you mean about feeling "unqualified" to comment on other obviously more talented photographer's work... But it is true that the more you comment, the more comments you seem to get back. So just look for something that you like about the pic, and focus your comment on that. Or just saying you love it, great capture, well done, made me smile, etc etc. is nice to do too.
If there are certain photographers whose work you admire - try hitting the contact button and writing them - asking specific questions about certain techniques or subjects, and you'll see many are more than happy to help. A few, unfortunately don't even bother to reply. I find those who don't bother saying thanks at the end of a photo thread may not be as likely to reply... not always though... I like having the last say on my threads - having thanked everyone who took the time to comment - especially seeing I'm so limited on commenting time myself - I'm so seriously in "comment" debt right now!
I think there isn't more serious critiquing going on because once upon a time there were some people who weren't very nice about it - and the threads would turn into not nice places... I think that's why they added the "report malicious thread" option here at BP... So most people stay on the nice positive side - but seriously - if you want someone's real opinion - try e-mailing them. There are so so many very helpful photographers here - that have helped me learn so much!


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11/6/2005 12:08:28 PM

 
Laura J. Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2003
  Firstly, LOL for Bob: macro on your dinner, huh? Well, better before than after. And, secondly,would someone from above discussion let me know please what sites give serious critique? I'd much appreciate knowing since I desperately want actual critical feedback on why something works and why it doesn't and what doesn't. I feel like I'm wasting a lot of time for lack of this direction. Thx.


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11/6/2005 9:34:07 PM

 
Maverick Creatives
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/1/2004
  Hi Laura. When I read your request for critique I went to your gallery. I think you should use another brand of glue as all of your photos have fallen off the page. I though perhaps they would be at the bottom of my monitor so I turned it upside down and gave it a shake but nope, didn't help, still can't see your photographs.
The photo gallery serves a number of purposes. First it allows other members to view your work and make comments. Second, it show a progress over the months or years you add to it. If you want your work critiqued your gallery would be a good place to start.

Regards
Gary


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11/7/2005 4:32:13 AM

 
Sharon  Day
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/27/2004
Contact Sharon
Sharon 's Gallery
  I've always thought it would be neat if BP had some kind of paying system where you could get a short critique from an instructor for photos you have questions about. Maybe it would be a photo you felt was really good and deserved a finalist but was overlooked. Naturally I'd want to be able to know which instructor was providing the critique. I'm sure the instructors are all too busy for this sort of thing but it would be a great way to find out their perspective as to what's right or wrong about an image. It would also be nice if this sort of thing was in a gallery of it's own so you could see the critique on other photos as well. Maybe it would be restricted to those willing to pay to looksee. Does this make any sense?


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11/7/2005 7:03:27 AM

 
Bob Cournoyer
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/9/2003
Contact Bob
Bob's Gallery
bobslens.com
  One small step for Laura, one giant leap for........:-)
Hey, Gary, this is a leap for Laura...getting her stuff out infront of this vast audience is a scarey thing.
Very funny about shaking your monitor, too...:-)
Bob


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11/7/2005 7:05:17 AM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  Count me in as well on the idea of having a critiquing service. It's something I thought about as my last BP class neared its close. As Sharon says, the instructors are no doubt already short on time. Maybe it's something that BP could look into. Price would definitely be an issue. The courses here, although really great, are already a big chunk of cash.

At any rate, I wouldn't want professional critique from PB instructors to sideline critique from all BP members. Not only is there a lot of great talent here but, as has been mentioned, we all have something to give. How can we foster both constructive critique and friendly praise?

...Bob, what a funny image of turning the monitor upside down. :)


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11/7/2005 7:19:53 AM

 
Bob Cournoyer
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/9/2003
Contact Bob
Bob's Gallery
bobslens.com
  "How can we foster both constructive critique and friendly praise?"

Which brings me back to the idea that maybe BP would consider putting out a "How to Constructively Critique Without Starting a Fist Fight" column or something.


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11/7/2005 7:34:29 AM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  ...er, Gary. Sorry! Maybe I should put the top back on the glue now that I'm done pasting my images in place. :O


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11/7/2005 7:48:19 AM

 
Jennifer W
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/26/2005
  Hee! Shaking the monitor. You guys are too funny.

"How to Constructively Critique Without Starting a Fist Fight"

I think the #1 rule should be "don't ask for a critique if you're not willing to accept it." :)


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11/7/2005 10:05:10 AM

 
Stan Lubach
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/1/2005
  The most important rule, I feel, when doing critiques is, "Critique the photograph, not the photographer." As an example, not - "you blew a highlight", instead - "the picture has a blown highlight". Sound good?


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11/7/2005 10:26:24 AM

 
Jennifer W
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/26/2005
  How about, "find something nice to say before criticizing"? As an example, "I like the composition, but..." or "This is a great idea for a photo, but..."


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11/7/2005 10:40:39 AM

 
Laura J. Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2003
  Hi All,
Hey, Gary, is good to see you here!! I had a gallery forever, but had a little fit and closed it out and asked Heather to take me off this site to which she never responded and I've siince taken a couple more classes. I intend to set it up again. The thing about critiques--for me--: at this point, I don't need any compliments, I don't even care if someone hates every single thing about the picture and I don't care how they tell me. I want to know why it isn't a prize winning, top selling photo of all times sought after by museums. Sort of. SOmething like that. We don't have critiques here. A class on critiquing is a great idea, I could do my own critiquing. The whole thing is, I don't know enough to critique my own pics completely or the museum reps would be at my door after I won every contest on this site. And I'd like much more finesse in the area of here are 100 perfect pics, which 10 are you going to reward? Are there any defining lines? Where is the gray area when personal preference dictates the merit of a photo? I want to be clear on covering all bases up to that point and then is when I might feel freer to incorporate more creativity...at least start thinking about a vision or a message or something I want to communicate specifically. I see literally gazillions of photos on this site that look perfect to me and that I admire so much. But only a handful of winners in an expert's eye--so I want to become an expert. My frustration = how do I do that? Nice thread here, Jennifer, thx much. (Hi Bob, you funny man).


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11/7/2005 11:36:16 AM

 
Laura J. Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2003
  PS----Can someone give me a site they like where critiquing is done? Thx. OH...and my other issue: The Steerage by Alfred Steiglitz, his favorite pic, generally considered to be an all-time brilliant photograph. I want to know how many people would look at that pic today and recognize "brilliance," not say "Geez, that's too busy." Maybe these are answers one gets in a college photography class???????????


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11/7/2005 11:40:32 AM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  I've done some looking around for sites to see how they do critiques. Note: I have NO experience with any of these sites. Maybe someone here does.

At PhotoFocus there's an article that nicely outlines receiving and giving critique, including some help in what to look for.

I think it would be great if BP would help foster a critique area.

/howie
foto.metta.nu


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11/7/2005 12:21:20 PM

 
Maverick Creatives
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/1/2004
  ok,let's set this up for the staff.
I did enjoy the critiques from my instructors. How much would I pay and HOW would I pay? ummmm,,credit card deposit of perhaps $25.00. Let's say each critique would cost 2.50, the cost of a beer,,,,somewhere. (At Bob's it's free).
ok,,,,your turn.


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11/7/2005 8:36:45 PM

 
Jennifer W
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/26/2005
  I'd be willing to pay $2.50 per photo for a critique with a minimum of $25, provided I got a detailed critique. I don't know how the instructors do it in class, but I'd want more than "a blown highlight in the upper left corner." If it's a detailed critique; that's more than fair, in my mind.

Totally off teh top of my head, don't know how logical it is: What about the opportunity for "paid members" (the ones paying for instructor critiques) to critique each other's photos, too? A "private" area with rules (such as critique the photo, not the photographer) that are enforced - either by a moderator or simply peer enforced?


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11/7/2005 8:47:13 PM

 
Maverick Creatives
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/1/2004
  If I really want a photo critiqued I can accomplish it by placing it in a contest catagory with a specific request for members to make suggestions on how to make it better.
If I was to pay for professional advice I think I'd prefer to concentrate on that rather than get many many different views from photographers with different opinions.
That may end up being confusing.

Guess what I'm saying is I'd pay my few bucks and leave it at that.

Gary


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11/8/2005 5:01:27 AM

 
Barbara Helgason
BetterPhoto Member Since: 1/4/2004
  Re:" I like having the last say on my threads - having thanked everyone who took the time to comment "

I notice many photographers like to write a thank you at the end of their threads and thank everyone who commented on their pics. There has been some criticism on those who don't write thank you's. I choose not to write thank yous that way because who actually goes back to a picture they commented on to see if the photographer thanked you? Once I've commented on a picture I never go back to it unless it ends up as a finalist or winner.
Instead of thanking everyone who commented on my picture at the end of the thread I choose to go to their galleries and take the time to comment on one of their recent pictures. I don't know, just trying to explain why there are usually no thank yous at the bottom of my pics.


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11/8/2005 8:24:10 AM

 
Stan Lubach
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/1/2005
  I'm pretty new here, and not being known, I don't get much in the way of comments ( at least, I assume that's the case ;) ). So, I don't actually know when the end of the thread will occur, and haven't known when to post a 'thank you'. There's also the fact that the one person who has been consistently commenting on my shots sits right across the aisle from me, so I can just thank him vocally over the cubicle wall.


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11/8/2005 8:45:48 AM

 
Nicole Kessel   I usually thank everyone right after I read their comment. Sometimes every other post on a single picture is me but, I want everyone to know I appreciate their input.

I don't usually follow up on any comments I have made to see if anyone has thanked me or not, but I do flag it if there is a discussion about that particular photo that I'm interested in or if I ask a question about it.

I also try and visit everyone's gallery that has commented on one of my photos. I try to comment on a photo in their gallery in return. What I WON'T do is give a positive comment on a photo that I don't like at all just for the sake of payback. I would hope no one would do that to me.

If someone directly asks me for advice or asks for critique on a photo (in the forum or otherwise) I would offer what I could. But, it is still ONLY my opinion.


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11/8/2005 9:28:25 AM

 
Bob Cournoyer
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/9/2003
Contact Bob
Bob's Gallery
bobslens.com
  I generally try to add a short personal note besides just saying thankyou....something about the weather that day or the area I was in......something so the person who commented knows that I really appreciate the time they took to comment. I know, saying thanks should be enough, but I like to add a bit more...:-)
Bob


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11/8/2005 9:47:53 AM

 
Laura J. Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2003
  Howie, Thx for those sites. I went to PhotoTakers first and found this terrific short article for everyone here!! http://www.phototakers.com/articles/articles/32.html


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11/8/2005 11:03:08 AM

 
Bob Cournoyer
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/9/2003
Contact Bob
Bob's Gallery
bobslens.com
  Hey, thanks, Laura J!!
Most of that stuff was rambling around in my head somewhere. Now I have a guide to put it in order and hopefully move it towards the front somewhere..........Right next to the 6-pak...:-)


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11/8/2005 11:59:56 AM

 
Dr Silly
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/28/2004
Contact Dr
Dr's Gallery
  Hey Jennifer I believe on a page of 40 photos most are just general photos to me, no big deal. (Some of my photos are in the general class) I have some BP'er who gallerys I check on all the time and if I do not like their photo I will not comment on it or I will e-mail them and tell them what I think. I also ask them to do the same. I also look though the recent enters and comment on the ones I like. As for your level we all start there, but we know what we like. Being the clown that I am, I look to make people happy and see no point in steping on someone toes if I can help it. Bye for now I'm getting long winded here so Bump a Nose and have some fun :o)


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11/8/2005 12:22:32 PM

 
Dr Silly
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/28/2004
Contact Dr
Dr's Gallery
  Oh one more thing Jennifer you cannot comment on all the photos on this site, so why comment on photos you not like?

:o)


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11/8/2005 12:33:51 PM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  Great article Laura. Thank you!


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11/8/2005 2:11:24 PM

 
John G. Clifford Jr
BetterPhoto Member Since: 8/18/2005
  It's a free country... comment on anything you want to as long as you're polite.

I don't often provide "constructive criticism" under the adage that nothing is as unwelcome as unwanted criticism. Quite frankly, my rule of thumb with my photos is that, if no one comments, they didn't like the photo enough TO comment.

That's okay. I take my photos to please me, and I'm not bothered if they don't please others. Of course, if others appreciate what fine images I have uploaded (ahem...) then that's okay, too!

If you really WANT constructive criticism, then stick a toe in the water on the 'Constructive Critique' forum. Trust me, if you ask, people WILL tell you what they think.


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11/8/2005 4:23:54 PM

 
Christopher Budny
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/3/2005
chrisbudny.com
  Glad to see so many people talking about the same questions that float thru my head sometimes. 2 tips I've learned, about *using* bp.com, in my 2 months here... (others may disagree)

1. If you hope to use your Contest Entries as a means to pull people in, shy away from the "Enter Contest" link available on each of your uploaded photos. You may increase the number of people who see that entry (for those folks who skim the first few pages of "Recent Entries" regularly.)
2. Uploading to the Critique Forum: Don't specify your pic file & title, nor pose your question all in the upload step. Upload the file itself (with just your title and camera settings data input.) Then, still within the Critique Forum, go to the "View Photos To Discuss" link and find the file you just uploaded--should be right on the first page--and start a discussion on that pic, posing your specific question or request for critique.

I think the sheer number of folks uploading files all day long, and soooo many contest entries every day, generally means less chance that a casual viewer will stumble onto your stuff. (And I know of no way for anyone to search for topics/keywords across galleries---or is that limitation just on free galleries?) I do believe you can start to draw people to your work by commenting on others... My hope is that if you leave a comment for someone else, not only do they reply, but they then check out your gallery as well, and ideally drop a comment.

I also agree that anything posted to the Critique Forum should get more feedback than "love the smile!" responses. (Who among us doesn't love praise? But afterall, there is a "Praise" forum for that.) Which means folks who *really* love your Critique pic, maybe shouldn't reply, if they can suggest no improvements. (They could still go to your gallery, and comment there, or email you directly with the "best picture ever--I'd change nothing!" comments. Keep in mind that if you have pic #10 in your gallery and want to enter that into Critique---if you upload a fresh instance of it, to Critique Forum, user comments will attach to that instance/photo ID#--not your Displayed gallery instance of the same pic.)

Finally, it should go without saying that any critiques offered should remain polite, and should strive to be, as the forum stipulates, *Constructive* rather than destructive.

I've really enjoyed my 2 months on BP.com, and have learned that I have so much to learn. I'll keep wishing for a wider audience viewing my pics & offering *any* feedback, but in the meantime, I'm very grateful for those who've already contacted me!


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11/8/2005 8:42:07 PM

 
Collette Photography
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/21/2005
  I have to agree with what most of you are saying here, I would love to get more constructive critiquing on my photos. I upload my photos on here for the porpose of people commenting on them, its how I learn what works and what doesnt. Obviosly everyone is going to think that the photos that they have in there gallery are good, otherwise they wouldnt put them in there for the most part, but that doesnt mean that they are going to get all bent out of shape if someone were to say that they could have done something better. Just my 2 cents!!

-Collette-


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11/9/2005 11:52:43 AM

 
Laura J. Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2003
  OK, my gallery is put together such that it is. Anyone's input is welcome. If you really like something, terrific, but please tell me what you don't like or what jumps out as crummy. Maybe most of the pics are just bland or ho-hum or uninspired or dull. WHATEVER! I shall survive and profit from any commentary. And thanks.


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11/9/2005 12:34:28 PM

 
Stan Lubach
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/1/2005
  So, how about we get a show of hands...

All those who would welcome a bit of constructive criticism mixed in with the friendly praise say, 'Aye!'


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11/9/2005 12:50:25 PM

 
Collette Photography
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/21/2005
  AYE!!!!!! Bring them on!!!!


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11/9/2005 12:52:42 PM

 
Laura J. Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2003
  The gauntlet's been thrown. OK, in my spare time and over the weekend, I'll get through every gallery represented in this thread and give my feedback. I don't think my critiquing skills are great yet, but I'll practice on you all! And if it becomes useful, we can connect and keep it up until we're too busy collecting commisions from galleries and agents. YEA!


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11/9/2005 1:02:30 PM

 
Jennifer W
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/26/2005
  *raising hand as high as I can* Aye!


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11/9/2005 1:57:31 PM

 
Joyce S. Bowley
BetterPhoto Member Since: 5/7/2004
  I too would appreciate constructive criticism; be honest, but not brutal :)

Joyce


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11/9/2005 7:47:21 PM

 
Maverick Creatives
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/1/2004
  Let's see, Laura is here, Bob is here, I am here, pretty soon we'll have our class put back together in this thread.
Glad to see your gallery back laura *smile*. Now I know you are still into your photography.
For all the people who want to have a photo critiqued, why not post one on this thread so we can all "take a shot at it*?
Wonder how many different opinions you would end up with.
Just a though.

Gary.


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11/9/2005 8:11:59 PM

 
Jennifer W
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/26/2005
  Okay, I'm willing. I'm really bad at submitting photos with my responses (last time I did it, I ended up with 4 posts), so here's the link:

http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/dynoGallDetail.asp?photoID=1377653&catID=&style=&rowNumber=3&memberID=140199

I really like this shot. It's one of the few I've "set up" since mostly I like 'capturing' the animal or person. But even though I like it, feel free to tear it apart (it, not me).


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11/9/2005 8:26:18 PM

 
Christopher Budny
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/3/2005
chrisbudny.com
  I'm in... :)
Question... did you mean insert a picture with these replies? Or, perhaps just provide the title of a pic on display in our own galleries (and we can link to the poster's gallery from here.)
I put one into the Critique Forum tonite, before I read this---you may find it there, or in my gallery---"Nantucket Sleighride"... FIRE AWAY!


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11/9/2005 8:34:29 PM

 
Christopher Budny
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/3/2005
chrisbudny.com
  Ooops---last procedural question...
Shall we post our critiques here, or attach them to the picture in question, via the photographer's gallery? (This thread is so long now, it may get hard to read or follow numerous critiques for several photos submitted at different times, etc!) That's all for tonite; time flies on bp.com!!


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11/9/2005 8:40:51 PM

 
Nobu Nagase
BetterPhoto Member Since: 5/31/2003
  Jennifer,
I just checked out your photo. And it turned out this is the one drew my attention right away when I went over to your gallery when you posted this thread first... I was the one who said "Friendly praises are always appreciated by people on this site"... I said it for a reason, the reason being I had to bite the dust when I gave a constructive critcism to a person who asked for it... but she did not like what I said... That experience gave me a real bad taste in my mouth... But on this photo, I did write a little what I thought of this photo.. I hope it was ok...


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11/9/2005 8:45:00 PM

 
Maverick Creatives
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/1/2004
  You're right Christopher. We really don't want to hijack responses from the Critique Forum. Having said that, I had a look at "Nantucket Sleighride".
*smile*,,,ok, the idea is good however with the photoshop work it's difficult to invision how the original photographs looked. They seem underexposed, notice the faces on the men on the right hand panel for example. Did you use fill flash?


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11/9/2005 8:48:24 PM

 
Maverick Creatives
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/1/2004
  I like it to jennifer. I also was attracted to that photograph a few days ago while browsing. I think it's the chrome reflections that got me. So therefore this picture has done what a photograph should do. Make us stop and look closer.
I could probably spend hours playing with it in photoshop just for fun.


Gary


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11/9/2005 8:57:12 PM

 
Jennifer W
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/26/2005
  Thanks, Nobi and Gary. Nobi, I did appreciate your comment. I tweaked it a bit in PS (hit the limit of my skills with that, though lol).


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11/9/2005 9:02:30 PM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  Christopher, always post the constructive critique as a discussion to the photo itself. They belong to each other more than anything else.


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11/10/2005 12:33:29 AM

 
Christopher Budny
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/3/2005
chrisbudny.com
  Done, Howie... posted to Jennifer's photo.
Thanks, Gary--yes, #4 is a bit of odd man out, compared to the other 3. I don't believe I altered the lighting in PS, so I'll have to examine the original pic. (None of the originals were exactly perfect to begin with, but they were the only logical set I had, for attempting a panorama.) I'm back on duty at the cathedral Saturday and will reshoot these, trying for more even lighting. A late afternoon shot should give me a better chance of that, vs. this morning shot.


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11/10/2005 4:02:29 AM

 
Stan Lubach
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/1/2005
  Great! I'll be happy to start doing critiques of photos by people who asked for them on this thread. I will just go through the galleries themselves, unless someone would prefer I restrict my comments to a single or particular set of photos.

Please feel free to critique any of the shots in my gallery. And thanks for your time, in advance!


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11/10/2005 4:18:06 AM

 
Laura J. Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2003
  Thx, Stan. We have a brand new member here, my buddy, Joni. She's not received any feedback on pics yet, just set up her gallery, so let's get her!!!!!!!!! (only kidding) http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/free/gallery.asp?mem=128917----looking forward to spending time here this weekend.


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11/10/2005 9:08:38 AM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  There is an inherent problem with the current BP method of getting constructive feedback. A self-created 'cc' discussion is just that, a discussion, not a request for feedback. Just because I've started a discussion there's no guarantee that anyone will ever know that I've asked for help.

Maybe it would be a good idea to have the option in the member center/your photos to mark photos for 'request feedback'. The photo would then show up in a section dedicated to feedback. Maybe it could be the 'New and Improved Constructive Critique Discussion Forum'.

Personally, all my photos are open to feedback/constructive critique. This may not be the case for everyone, and it this may change for me someday; thus the thought of having both a special marker for photos that the photographer would like to get feedback on and the new and improved 'cc' forum. ;)

Thoughts?


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11/10/2005 1:22:52 PM

 
Collette Photography
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/21/2005
  Howie, I tryed going through your gallery to critique some of your photos, but I couldnt find anything wrong with any of them!!!!! They all look like they should be winners in the contest!!!!!
I did try though!!!! LOL!!!!

I hope you all will take the time to Critique my photos, I will be waiting in anticapation for what you all find wrong with them!!!! LOL!!! J/K!!!

I got through a few galleries today, but I will try and get to the rest of your all galleries when I can!!

-Collette-


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11/11/2005 8:14:37 AM

 
Joyce S. Bowley
BetterPhoto Member Since: 5/7/2004
  Collette -- I had the same problem looking at Howie's gallery! Glad I'm not the only one who felt that way.

Joyce


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11/11/2005 8:36:52 AM

 
Laura J. Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2003
  I'm going to the galleries this weekend so I haven't seen Howie's work yet, but this is my main concern, that we, the amateurs, alluded to in the title of this thread, don't look at pics the same way as the experts, and, therefore, can't give the same kind of critique until we become the experts, and then we might not care to and we'll be too busy making expert photos!?!?!?!? Yes? I am constantly awed by most of the pics that show up as winners on the page where we first greet this web site. They are often extraordinary and something I haven't been able to emulate yet. I might be more succinct in my request for help if I could say "Hey, you, tell me how to make a picture like that one?" Which just means I have to keep practicing I guess. Just thoughts here, looking forward to everyone's gallery soon.


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11/11/2005 12:25:06 PM

 
Stan Lubach
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/1/2005
  Laura, for me critiquing is so much telling someone what's right or wrong. It's more a way to suggest how you might have done it differently. Tell me why you wouldn't have created this particular composition. If something rubbed you the wrong way, point it out. If you thought something worked out great, throw a word of praise in. We take photos that are right for us, ourselves. A critique just forces us to look at the shot from a different perspective.


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11/11/2005 2:32:12 PM

 
Sharon  Day
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/27/2004
Contact Sharon
Sharon 's Gallery
  I'm hardly an expert, but it doesn't matter to me the level of expertise of anyone leaving a compliment on one of my photos, however, I would rather people NOT comment at all if they don't truly enjoy the pic.


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11/11/2005 4:11:19 PM

 
Christopher Budny
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/3/2005
chrisbudny.com
  Sharon! There are what, 43 finalist/winner medals in your gallery?! Those are some great shots you taken! I can't imagine anyone *not* enjoying your pics!


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11/11/2005 7:13:18 PM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  Critique isn't necessarily about finding something wrong with a picture. Look and feel for the party in the picture, what touches you, what bothers you, what it says for you, what feelings are invoked, your thoughts, your thoughts about how the process of creating the image might have occurred, the subject, the light, technical issues, what you see. If there's no party then sometimes it's appropriate to say so. It depends on the situation. If a particular image really is displeasing for me then it's usually best that I accept that for myself. It may be that other people enjoy the photo. It may be that the artist wanted to invoke that feeling in me.

I critiqued a friend's photo yesterday. I found that as I started looking and writing, more things came to life for me. I discovered what about the picture l liked, questions about the composing process, things I didn't see until 'being' with, and coming back to, the picture for quite a while, etc. I even wrote that I kept asking myself if there was something that could be different in the image to enhance my experience with it, yet I was unable to come up with anything. My friend was happy for the critique because, among other things, she learned about how another person experienced her image.

It's also completely ok to ask about how a photographer did what they did. Sometimes it's a very general question and at other times very specific. Don't expect the person to explain every detail. Sometimes the photographer chooses not to disclose any information. We the viewers should respect the artist's choices and understand that the purposes for revealing and not revealing can vary, sometimes it has to do with very personal items. In any case, if we ask and give respectfully then we will at times get information.

Check out the Giving the Critique section of this web page. Although the author initially makes the statement about how to offer improvement, what she talks about is how to discover the image.

The thing I love about photography is that I am an artist. I've waited my whole life to say that I feel like an artist. I love being here and experiencing art together with lots of other artists. :)

/howie


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11/12/2005 12:04:08 AM

 
Nicole Kessel   Very well said, Howie. Nice article, too. Thank you!


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11/12/2005 4:40:32 AM

 
anonymous A.    I've only been a member here for abot a month, and although I have had a lot of positive response to my photos (I seem to get half a dozen comments each day, some on gallery photos, others on competition entries), I would really value more criticism. I KNOW my work isn't as good as the kind remarks would lead me to believe (but I don't want to stop getting all that praise, either!!!).
I read a lot of very fulsome praise for pictures that are just OK (IMHO) which makes it hard to make suggestions for improvement to those particular photos.
I DO criticise (positively, I hope) and so far, members have expressed gratitude for it, so I'll keep doing it and hope others will offer me the same sort of help. I'd take it as a courtesy: in fact, please accept this as an invitation to visit and critique the gallery as a whole or any image in it! Especially Jennifer W.


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11/12/2005 5:19:39 AM

 
Dee Caraballo
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/3/2003
  I'm an amateur who's been playing around with my gear for about four years now. I'm very quick to say when something strikes me or doesn't, pro or not. If Bob posted something that I didn't "get" (not that you have mind you, but just saying!) I would feel very comfortable with letting him know. And more often than not what I get back is a "Here's why I did that..." type deal which usually turns me around in my opinion.

I do post photos for constructive critique. I love it when folks tell me they like my pics, but I also want to read the "but if you had only just done...". I can't get better if you only tell me what you like about my photos (hopefully HONESTLY like) if you don't tell me what I may be doing wrong (I'm a very, very lazy photographer who pays attention to composition AFTER I 've taken the shot). So, I live for that critique!

But I think the only way to get to know the Bob's and Stan's of the world is to let them know what you think, and allow them to guide you as to why you may not be seeing the big picture (pun intended? Maybe). And who knows? Maybe you, the amateur, might be able to give them another way to look at it themselves

(OK, Bob and other Pros, get into my gallery and start critiquing! Stan, you've already been helping me THANK YOU!)


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11/12/2005 9:21:19 AM

 
Katrina McMeans
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/9/2005
  I sometimes have a hard time giving critiques to others...especially those with Premium Galleries or better yet, Deluxe Web Sites! There for a while, I ONLY commented on people's free galleries...then I gained confidence and commented on Premium Galleries, now I am every now and then commenting on those with web sites!
I just never know how the photographer is going to take it...especially the really experienced ones! I was scared stiff to critique a picture by Elizabeth Ann Gay...but she was SO nice about it that I got over my nervousness rapidly!
I think mostly my lack of confidence is the fact that I am only 18 and feel really weird critiquing the 'real' adults! ; D
And sometimes I feel bad because they don't all know that they're asking an 18 year old for advice...I'm probably just being weird about it but I feel somehow that it's not fair for them to think I'm really old and experienced when I'm not!
That being said, I don't mind critique or other comments from ANYONE who wants to give them to me! I don't like brutal critique, though...who does??? As long as someone is kind about it yet to the point, I will definitely be grateful for your input.
So if any of you want to get to work on my gallery...I really do SO want to improve!
Thanks! ; )
~K


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11/12/2005 3:59:04 PM

 
Laura J. Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2003
  Katrina,
I've read some of your comments, on my pics and others. You do a great job with critique. I'd never guess you were 18 and I've never actually thought about age here so relax about that prejudice. You're bright, concise, educated, and you have a good eye. I look forward to your gallery. Just now realizing that time is a major drawback to much in depth looking and critiquing, darn. Always need more time.


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11/12/2005 4:05:15 PM

 
Stan Lubach
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/1/2005
  Katrina, I may be older, but I ain't no "adult". I'm still very much a kid, though my toys have gotten MUCH more expensive. ;)


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11/12/2005 4:07:51 PM

 
Katrina McMeans
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/9/2005
  Thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words, Laura and Stan! I appreciate all of you who have helped me in the past, and to all of you who will! ; )
~K


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11/12/2005 4:21:24 PM

 
Maverick Creatives
BetterPhoto Member Since: 4/1/2004
  Katrina, you amaze me with your intelligence and professional determination to conquer the world of photography. With a fixed lens camera you are producing artistic shots that people shooting years and years with slr's can't produce. You have the "knack" and the eye to go with it.
It's a gift Katrina, treasure it.
You are very honest and polite and I'm sure no one at all would be insulted or upset with any critique you may offer. Age has nothing to do with art. Keep up the good work young cowgirl.

Regards
Gary


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11/12/2005 4:45:03 PM

 
Katrina McMeans
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/9/2005
  Thank you so much, Gary! Your words mean so much to me! ; )
Thank you for your praise! I sometimes get frustrated with my camera...I feel that I am outgrowing it yet I can't afford a 'real' one for at least half a year. It's nice to know that I am turning out passable work with it though! ; D
Thank you SO MUCH for your encouragement!
~K


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11/12/2005 4:56:15 PM

 
Bob Cournoyer
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/9/2003
Contact Bob
Bob's Gallery
bobslens.com
  You're way past "passable", Katrina!
I bow to Gary who knows all the words....:-)

Bob


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11/12/2005 6:24:06 PM

 
Katrina McMeans
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/9/2005
  Bob, thank you so much! I 'bow' to all of you who have been so kind and encouraging to me! I hope to check out you all's galleries in the morning!
~K


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11/12/2005 7:33:58 PM

 
Kara L. Hendricks
BetterPhoto Member Since: 10/18/2004
  Ok... I'm going to add my 2 cents worth, which is all it's probably worth...lol
I do wish more critique went on at BP... But then have to admit sorta getting my feelings hurt when someone doesn't see the same qualities I do in a shot of mine... I've said it before, photography is SO subjective... Almost like a work of art to many and there really aren't alot of restrictions for an artist... They paint what they feel.. And photographers do the same with their canvases..
I am impressed by all the galleries and photographers represented in this thread and have been known to leave the GREAT SHOT type comments.. I am certainly no pro... But have to say, that when starting out on BP.. The only way to get noticed is to comment.. I spent 2 hours a day for over 6 months posting and commenting every morning like clockwork...Just to get people to come by my gallery and look at what I had to offer.. I have since seen a big change in my style and abilities, not due to the comments, but paying attention to quality photographers and their galleries.. The feedback although sometimes shallow it seems, really helped out a starter like myself, especially the first time I got a comment from someone like Dan Holm, Sanjay, Kathleen Clemons, Stan C., Many of who I admire so much.. And even their comments somtimes seemed like they were just going through the entries... But what a boost it gives to a person needing it.. So I am all for it. In fact I make it a personal goal every week to comment on 5 images who's name I've never seen before or who have few or no comments.. I remember being there... And a little encouragment, be it amateur or not means everything!! Thanks for listening...


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11/13/2005 4:25:04 AM

 
Nobu Nagase
BetterPhoto Member Since: 5/31/2003
  Very well said, Kara.
It's so true about artists and their art beside technical issues in photography.
This relates to Bob C's analogy (toward the top of this thread) where he said, "Don't you criticize my photo! Not my baby!"

Positive reinforcement always works.


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11/13/2005 7:21:36 AM

 
Katrina McMeans
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/9/2005
  When critiquing, I ALWAYS mention something I liked about their picture and then go into what I think should be changed. With issues that are not technical, but where I may just have a different opinion, I try to make sure that I tell them that this is just an idea, or just the way I view it. I don't want anyone to feel that I am attacking them or acting like I know much more than they do, even though I may actually happen to. And a little smiley face never hurts! ; )
~K


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11/13/2005 9:59:32 AM

 
Dee Caraballo
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/3/2003
  I'm much like Katrina. I try to let them know what I like first, and then, if there is anything that I think detracts, I say so. Trying to make sure they understand that it's MY opinion and MY perception and may not actually be applicable. If I don't get a shot, I won't critique it, though I may make an exception if the person hasn't gotten ANY response at all.


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11/13/2005 11:58:54 AM

 
Collette Photography
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/21/2005
  I do the same thing, I always say what I like first, then I give my suggestions as to what could be done better!!
Katrina, I always felt the same way, since I to am only 18, but I think that everyones oppinion counts no matter there age, and personally I think that you are much better than a lot of people that are older than you, so I would value your oppinion very highly!!

I just read some of the comments that Ive gotten on my photos, and I got so many good constructive critiques!!! I'm SO EXCITED!!! They were exactly what I was looking for, they stated what I could do better, plus they gave me suggestions on how to do that!!!! So keep um comming!!!!! Im going to open up all of the ones that I got suggestions on today, and try out what people have said to see if I can improve the photos, so thanks again to everyone that critiqued!!!


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11/14/2005 9:39:54 AM

 
Sherry S. Boles
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/28/2005
  I'm not a professional. I do leave positive comments. If I see something about a photo that I really like, I enjoy sharing that with the photographer so they can know that someone out there appreciates their work. I also try to mention something specific about the photo that I like as well to give the photographer some information that might be helpful.
I do NOT give critiques for a few reasons: (1) If I can't say anything nice, I don't like saying anything...(2) I don't feel that I have enough knowledge to helpfully critique...and (3) I might not like something, someone else might like it and the judges may feel indifferent. Everyone looks at a photo differently. The judges are the ones who choose the winners and only they could tell you how to better the photo to win. Unfortunately, I am not a fan of the judges comments. I have seen them too many times leave comments like "remove the border and resubmit" or "remove the wording and resubmit" only to see the same type of photo in the finalist or even winner circle. This goes to show that winning photos defy description...and sometimes break the rules. So, who knows if a photo that "breaks the rules" will be just what appeals to the judges although I can come up with many technical reasons (and even refer to the guidelines on this site) why it shouldn't be a winner... For this reason, I don't find critiques helpful.
I have had photos do very well on other websites and not get finalist on BP and the other way around. In fact, I had tons of self-critique for my Sept. finalists. If I had been the one reveiwing them critically I would have trashed both (one more than the other) of them.
I much prefer honest compliments and know that someone enjoyed the photo well enough to take the time and comment. If one of my photos affects someone enough to take their time and write, I feel that the photo has accomplished its purpose. If your opinion is a positive one, I doubt you can go wrong...
I didn't mean to ramble on...I hope it makes sense... =)


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11/14/2005 11:38:53 PM

 
Laura J. Smith
BetterPhoto Member Since: 7/1/2003
  Amen, Sherry. Howie gave a nice elucidation of critiqueing. I don't think I want to do it anymore and I don't think I'm gonna ask for it either. The subjectivity is rampant, it doesn't seem helpful or useful in either case, the best critiques would come from the courses here and everywhere else, and it really is judges whom I want to tell me why I didn't "win the prize". I get so much from looking closely at other people's pics, will leave a note of ppreciation then I think and let the rest go. Otherwise, I'd have no time to take pics.


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11/15/2005 12:59:07 AM

 
anonymous A.    The last couple of posts mentioned trying to understand how judges decide (or should decide) who wins and loses. Getting the nod for a competition is important to some more than to others, but getting the opinions of people whose own work we can look at to see if they produce the kinds of pictures that would let us trust their judgement is a different matter!
I have lots of prizes (many of which I don't prize, if you know what I mean) but I learn more and value it more when my friends take a long hard look at my work and tell me honestly what they like, don;t like and WHY. That doesn't just apply to photography...


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11/15/2005 1:53:53 AM

 
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