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Photography Question 
Melissa  L. Zavadil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/26/2005
 

Anyone Have The New Canon 5D??


I am seriously concidering buying this camera and I would really like to talk with someone in regards to the camera. In particular the sport functions on the camera. I have noticed that all the 'basic' features of the camera have been taken off -landscape,sports,flowers,backlit,etc. Is it easy to program the camera for these functions? Also is anyone comming from the 20d and then went to the 5D? -- I am wondering if I am at all going to like the decreased amount of frames per second. I shoot motocross so this is important to me.
Any other thoughts on the camera would be welcomed!!! :)


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11/2/2005 7:39:24 AM

 
Uyen  
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/9/2004
  Melissa, I just got it, and still getting the hang of it now that all my lenses behave differently. I came from the 300d, although I have some experience shooting with the 20d. I really love this camera because it is such a vast improvement over the 300d. But I think if capturing sports is important to you, you may really miss the 5fps of the 20d. (Have you thought about the 1D Mark II N instead?) I don't miss the speed at all for what I like to shoot because my favorite subjects generally stay put. :)

I almost always shoot in aperture priority mode, so I don't know much about the landscape, sports, flowers etc. modes and how easy they would be to program in. But besides the lack of these modes, I think the camera is really similar to the 20d. The buttons, dials, and functions are all pretty much in the same place, so it wouldn't take long to figure out the 5d.


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11/2/2005 8:43:51 AM

 
Melissa  L. Zavadil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/26/2005
  The 1D Mark II N does not have the required megapixels that I need for my job. So, unfortunately that is out of the question. I even found the 1DS Mark II does not have as many fps as the 20D. This is a real bummer for me! But, I might just have to keep the 20D for my sports and buy the 5D for my job. :(

I know the mark and the 5D take EF lenses. Does this mean that they can not take the L series lenses that I currently have that fit my 20D?

So, it does have aperature priority mode. I was wondering about that, that is good!! :)
Thanks!


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11/2/2005 9:48:20 AM

 
Uyen  
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/9/2004
  What kind of stuff will you be shooting for your job? Not sports, I'm guessing? I forgot to mention that it can shoot continuously over a greater number of frames than the 20d and you might like that.

All your L lenses would be fine. The only lenses it won't take are the EF-S lenses (17-85mm and 10-22mm). I'm now glad I didn't buy either of these.


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11/2/2005 10:17:13 AM

 
Melissa  L. Zavadil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/26/2005
  I shoot stock and they require 11 megpxls. I shoot motocross events also but that is just on the side for fun. What do you mean shoot continuously over a greater number of frames. Because I know that the frames per second are lower than the fps in the 20D.

Thats so great to know that my lenses will fit!! :) Thanks!!
Melissa


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11/2/2005 1:07:58 PM

 
Andrew Laverghetta
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/13/2004
  Depending on what you use the motocross pics for and what kind of lenses you have, it might be good to use the 20D for something other than the fps. Also, fps isn't as big of a thing as it's hyped to be in my opinion. Obviously the 8fps of one of the Canon pro models and the Nikon ones can be used for certain sports, I always keep in mind that for sports like basketball, one can only shoot about once every 4 seconds if they have the flash doohikey on their hot shoe. They have to be better photographers than the people who blast away at 5 or 8 fps. They have to be able to pick the height of the moment. Also, depending on how long of lenses you use for the motocross and how much cropping you do, the 20D might be better unless you can get a longer lens. Since the 20D has the 1.6x field of view crop that lets you get closer than you will with the 5D full frame sensor so if you had a 300mm lens, it would act like 300mm and not 480mm like it would on your 20D. I think one of the larger photo magazines said that if you tend to crop images a lot, the 20D could be better for you than something like the 1Ds Mark II.

Also, I wouldn't expect that you would be shooting on the auto modes like portrait and landscape if you are seriously submitting to stock agencies. You should be able to use the manual or at least half manual if that is where your final product is going. There's nothing really special that these auto modes do that you can't do yourself with some thought and some post processing. I think it's interesting that they even put those parameters on the 5D. If you're shooting 12 megapixels and paying the money for them, you should be able to saturate skin tones yourself. Also, yes, Canon's "L" lenses are still EF lenses. They say "EF" on them. EF lenses work on all of Canon's EOS cameras. I think all pro cameras have modes like P, TV, AV, and M. That should be standard. Check the camera out on dpreview.com to learn more about the camera before you consider buying it.

I think I learned my 20D in about a day after I got it because I had researched it so much lol.

Hope this helps!


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11/2/2005 2:11:51 PM

 
Uyen  
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/9/2004
  Melissa,

"What do you mean shoot continuously over a greater number of frames?"

What I mean is that if you have the camera in continuous shooting mode, you can keep shooting this way for a longer period of time before the camera starts to choke. You can shoot 17 raw frames continuously with the 5D, but only 6 raw frames continuously on the 20D. I haven't tried this out myself, though. Like I said, my photographic subjects usually stay nice and still.

Andrew: they don't have the exposure modes like portrait/landscape/sports etc. on the 5D. Just M, Av, Tv, P, bulb, custom, and auto. You may be thinking of the "picture style" parameters, which are an entirely different thing from what I think Melissa was referring to.


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11/2/2005 2:52:04 PM

 
Andrew Laverghetta
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/13/2004
  Yeah, I think I may have mentioned the word parameters having to do with tone, saturation, and contrast things. I would also expect to have the portrait bump up the skin tones and landscape or whatever to bump up the greens maybe. I dont' remember what all they are but I guess it might be called 'picture style.' I was just commenting that if you are ready to upgrade to the 5D, you shouldn't even think about using the auto exposure modes like portrait/landscape/sports etc. I believe that the auto exposure modes that I just mentioned try to estimate what the best aperture or shutter speed combo would be while often times, the settings aren't too far from the other auto modes. Oh well though.


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11/2/2005 3:27:47 PM

 
Melissa  L. Zavadil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/26/2005
  Andrew, every pro photographer does not have to shoot a certain way, or 'your certain way'. Your comment;

" I was just commenting that if you are ready to upgrade to the 5D, you shouldn't even think about using the auto exposure modes like portrait/landscape/sports etc" is way out of line.
ALSO
"They have to be better photographers than the people who blast away at 5 or 8 fps." Where are you comming from? This is rediculous!

I have a style, you have a style and others have styles. My images are lifestyle not portraits. My images come from the heat of the moment. Not typically from a set that is prepared. No one states you can not sell to stock companies based on what mode of use you chose when captureing but they do tell you what magapixels is exceptable and also what images are exceptable. Bottom line it is not how you capture an image but the image itself. And believe it or not fps is very important in capturing motocross. Bottom line when you go to an editor it is not the amount of pictures that you captured in the long run it is 'the' picture the editor is going to use. With digital WHO CARES--there is no loss as to how many photos you take. This is a film defense that is comming from a pocketbook.

What do you think asking questions on a forum is.....it certainly could not be concidered research. HUMMMMMM I wanted to get answers from people that HAVE the camera. Do you HAVE the camera Andrew? If you do please tell me something useful that might be of service to me, about the camera itself and your preferences and tastes of the camera. I can read DP review.

Uyen, what I was trying to state as a concern is the 'bursts'. Have you used this feature on the 5D and then how does it compare to the 20D? I was wondering because the sales person stated it was slower than the 20D. Also can you do bursts with a fast focusing (like the sports mode on the 20D) but able to put the camera in manual? For example on a motocross track sometimes the rider is backlit and you can not enter the track from the other direction. On the 20D you could not set the camera to manual/sports mode and have the camera track the subject--at least I never figured that out if it is possible-which I doubt. Can you do this with the 5D? I guess you are supposed to be able to program this into the camera from what the sales person stated here but, he was not exactly sure. Also, do you know if the camera has more than one sports type focusing mode? The sales person stated that if something is comming straight on it can track it where as the 20D could not (which is definately true). How does that feature work is the tracking good?
This information will be good to know because I need to figure out if I can sell my 20D or if I need to keep it.
Thanks!


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11/2/2005 4:38:29 PM

 
Andrew Laverghetta
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/13/2004
  Actually, the 20D can track moving subject. Not just coming towards you or away, but moving across your field of view as well. I've done it a few times when I've needed it but I haven't shot motocross. Press the AF-WB button and scroll the top wheel to either AI Focus or AI Servo. One changes between fixed focus while the camera is still and other is constantly adjusting focus. If you set it to encompass all of the autofocus points it will use all 9 points to keep the subject in focus as best it can as long as it's moving at a constant speed and direction.

I don't believe that I'm the only person who would suggest to use even P instead of "sports" mode. If you're at a sporting event you can set your focus to what you need it to be at and then you can set your aperture to 2.8 or something. If part of your field of view starts to get too bright for 2.8, turn the dial a little bit to change the aperture. I believe that if you just use the shotgun method and hope that you get something, that isn't really doing the work. You're just moving the camera and holding the button. My comment on being a better photographer and not just shooting a burst and hoping to get just 1 that's usable is not rediculous. I'm coming from shooting at my university's newspaper. If I were to shoot at a basketball game using the hall's flash system, you have to be better than the rest of the people who are just shooting away at 5 or 8 frames per second because the flash won't power up in less than 4 seconds or so. The person with the flash only has 1 shot to get "the shot" while the rest of the people will have about 8 shots of somebody going up for a dunk. Plus, when I would upload my photos to their computer I would have to pick and choose the best pictures to upload because with so many people uploading photos, the computer gets filled quickly. This is not a film defense or whatever.


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11/2/2005 5:09:16 PM

 
Andrew Laverghetta
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/13/2004
  Oh, also, I noticed that if you use the preset auto modes, you can't shoot RAW and if your white balance gets off, it's more time consuming to correct. You also can't override the cameras settings. I noticed you said something about backlighting. This would be a good time to turn the dial on the back of the camera to set an exposure compensation.

You seem to think that I can not respond to this simply because I don't own a 5D. I responded to the technical aspect of things that I know, plus other things that I have experienced like the field of view crop. You probably won't be able to get as close with the 5D. I don't need a 5D to tell you this. Also, my response to the fps and maximum number of shots in a burst, if you have tried shooting RAW, you can only shoot 6 before it has to stop and store those pictures that you took. If you just shoot in the sports mode for your sports shots, you probably haven't had a problem as you can probably take over 20 pictures in a row before the camera has to stop and clear the buffer. The 5D doesn't shoot as many frames in a second, but the tradeoff is to be able to shoot more RAW shots consecutively. This burst is similar to Nikon's D70. It can shoot JPEG Fine (I think) until it fills the card because it has a good, fast buffer as does the 5D.

I do believe that I have given you at least some useful information. If you want to be ignorant and not listen, that is your choice.

Set me up at a motocross event a few times and I'm sure that I could set my camera to single shot and get some fine images.


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11/2/2005 5:20:28 PM

 
Uyen  
BetterPhoto Member Since: 12/9/2004
  Melissa,

The 5D is definitely slower than the 20D in continuous shooting mode. Whether 3fps is fast enough for you at a motocross event, I don't know. Will they let you test it at the camera store? Maybe they might even let you take it outside and test it on a moving subject. That way you could also see if your telephoto lenses are still long enough to do what you need to do on the 5D.

Anything you could do in "sports mode" you should be able to do in one of the manual exposure modes as well. And yeah, you should be able to program in your own "sports mode" as a custom mode on the camera by just setting it to continuous shooting mode (or burst mode, as you call it), activating all of the camera's autofocus points, and setting the autofocus to "AI servo" mode. I think the only difference between the 5D and the 20D as far as the tracking of subjects is the 5D can track straight-on moving subjects. Just for kicks, I tried the camera on AI servo mode to track an object moving directly towards me and it seemed to work well.

I hope I was able to answer some of your question, but I'm not sure if I did. The problem is that I don't shoot sports at all so I just have no clue about how to assess this camera for sports shooting. I wish I could be more helpful, but I'm afraid I can't. Hopefully, you will find someone who has the 5D and has tried it for sports. I can understand why it's a tough choice. I think the 20D is a fantastic camera as well. It seems like a great thing to have for shooting action and sports. GOod luck with your decision!


Andrew: I've actually never tried the various picture styles myself but since you mentioned them I'm now suddenly curious as to what the heck they are. If you shoot in raw, then I don't think it matters what picture style you have it set on. You can apply the styles to any raw file in canon's raw converter. I normally prefer the adobe converter, but I'll have to try this function out just to see what they do. Maybe they're handy for someone who has to process a huge batch of photos and needs to save time.


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11/2/2005 7:57:39 PM

 
Andrew Laverghetta
BetterPhoto Member Since: 9/13/2004
  I'm not sure if a raw converter for something like Photoshop CS or CS2 would do the same thing or not, but there's probably something in the software that came with the kit (lens or not, I dont' remember if there is a kit lens for this camera, maybe the 24-105 is the most standard). As with the 20D, you can't easily add a black and white contrast filter after you've taken a raw image unless you use canon's software or at least it's a lot easier. Not the same thing but possibly similar. You can shoot JPEG with the 5D right? I know a few times I've had to get some pictures printed quickly when I worked at a farm camp. I took group pictures and a few times I wasn't able to use photoshop so I shot JPEG and messed around with different parameters.


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11/2/2005 8:35:06 PM

 
Melissa  L. Zavadil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/26/2005
  Thank you so much Uyen, I really appreciate your input! I know that I have to get this camera so I need to learn about it. I am sad about the fast features of the 20D and having to loose them. I might have to keep it for backup just for motocross. :(

They might let me test it outside. I didn't ask them at the store. The sales people really didn't seem that helpful there. It is new so I don't think they are that used to it yet. Maybe I should just go to the store with my morning coffee and read the manual!! :) LOL!!

Thanks!


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11/2/2005 8:40:58 PM

 
Christopher A. Vedros
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/14/2005
  Andrew, I think there is some confusion over the term "sports mode". I don't think Melissa is using the sports auto icon mode, I think she is shooting in manual with AI servo focusing. I may be wrong, though.


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11/2/2005 8:42:05 PM

 
Christopher A. Vedros
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/14/2005
  Melissa,
I have been saving up to replace my Digital Rebel (300D) with the 20D. But since the 5D came out, I'm seriously thinking about putting out the extra 2 grand. I know the 20D has lots of features that the Rebel doesn't have, but it's only about a 2MP increase in resolution. The 5D would be double my current resolution!

(pause to wipe drool off keyboard)

Don't let the 3fps vs. 5fps make you think that the 5D won't be fast enough for shooting sports. The larger internal buffer means that you will be able to shoot longer bursts of images without having to wait for the camera to write to the memory card.

There's no reason to think that the 5D won't focus more quickly than the 20D, also. It has all the same functionality of the 20D, plus it has 6 additional focus points to assist in AI Servo and predictive focus tracking modes.

As for losing the 1.6 lens factor since the 5D has a full frame sensor -- does anyone really see this as a problem?? Do the math! Yes, you lose the 60% zoom factor, but you gain almost 60% in resolution. You could crop an image from the 5D to match the zoom factor of the 20D, and still have about the same number of pixels as the uncropped 20D image.

I remember reading that line about zoom factor in a magazine, and I think the author was smoking crack. If you follow his logic, the trend would be to make DSLRs with smaller and smaller sensors to benefit from the extra zoom factor, rather than increasing resolution. Does that make any sense??

The more I look at this camera, the more I convince myself that I want it. I'll have to wait to see how much money is left after I fix my Katrina-damaged roof, though.

Damn priorities!

Chris


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11/2/2005 9:29:57 PM

 
Craig  Paulsen   usaphotonation.com has it for $2500, was just about to buy my first canon (20d) and then this baby pops up. I'm still checking them out


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11/3/2005 1:32:39 AM

 
Craig  Paulsen   just found out Optics must be tip top of the line


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11/3/2005 3:21:22 AM

 
Christopher A. Vedros
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/14/2005
  Craig, be VERY careful with sites like that. Most of the sites that offer big discounts on Canon cameras fail to mention that they charge you steep prices for the battery, battery charger and other things that are normally in the Canon box.

You should stick with Authorized Canon resellers, so you know you're getting a true US product with a full US warranty.


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11/3/2005 6:33:42 AM

 
Melissa  L. Zavadil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/26/2005
  Hey Chris!! How the heck are you!! Thanks for your always awesome awesome info! That makes a whole lot of sense! the large internal buffer sounds really neat! I like the idea of after a burst I don't have to wait.

The frames per second really is important in motocross because to catch leap or a crash in full frame motion is really cool. Do you NEED it no, but it is really really cool to see the guy fall (LOL) or have a consective approach to the jump with landing! :) Plus, in motocross the real money comes from the crashes and those not so pretty moments -- which are the HARDEST thing to catch. So the guy that has those pics makes the money. :) The photo of Bubba crashing on Ricky Carmichael -- went for over thousands! And only one person was fast enough to catch that in motion there were over NINE shooters that day. All the major mags bought the picture from the guy! There was a complete bidding war. It is going to go down in the books for motocross as the highest paid pic.

Anyway, you are completely right about staying away from tactics of selling cameras! There are so many scams now on the 5D that Ebay has set an automatic response on any bid that is put on one of these cameras! They state people are hacking into other peoples accounts listing the camera and then taking or drawing from the paypal account. NEVER buy from a person you don't know. I even had one person contact me to tell me that the camera that I was bidding on was a hack!! (It was being sold as used! go figure! ) So, I know that it is happening.

The camera that that guy is refering to is a grey market with NO assessories. It is NOT the same camera. Canon got smart and made it different. It does NOT have the same body. It is made out of a poly carbonate and not magneasium (sp?) anyway the camera does not come with a warranty or any battery, charger, cables cd etc.

I will be buying the real deal. Most likely from B&H. They are a great company with great prices and they are a reputable dealer.


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11/3/2005 7:49:32 AM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  For most of us buffer is far more important that fps. Perhaps certain events (i.e.- motocross) where you need to get shots very tight to each other it's important. Usually you need more shots over a few seconds rather than 5 shots in a one second period and then wait for a while util the camera is ready to go again.

Chris, it's a 0.3 MP difference between 20D and 350D. They have basically the same 1.6x sensor.


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11/3/2005 8:42:04 AM

 
Melissa  L. Zavadil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/26/2005
  Thanks Howie for clearing that up. I think a lot of people confuse motocross as a slower sport. It is very fast and it requires a very high speed high fps to capture the full motion. I am not sure many other sports would require that. (well, of course it doesn't 'require' that -- but, it is great to have)


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11/3/2005 9:30:30 AM

 
Christopher A. Vedros
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/14/2005
  Howie,
I have the original 6.3MP Digital Rebel (called the 300D outside the US), not the 8MP Rebel XT (350D outside the US).

Chris


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11/3/2005 12:13:03 PM

 
Howie Nordström
BetterPhoto Member Since: 3/11/2005
  Sorry Chris. I realized directly after posting that, as you state in your post, you were referring to the 300D.


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11/4/2005 12:09:59 AM

 
Wayne T. Fisk
BetterPhoto Member Since: 6/12/2005
  Melissa, I own a 5D...and so far, I love it. The photos so far have been great! I'm rolling up from a Canon 20D. The 5D does very well in low light conditions and panning shots. If your life depends on sports photography get the new 1D Mark II N. If sports shooting is part of a broader portfolio demanding FF, you'll do quite well with the 5D and can adapt to most of all the speed technicalities citied above. I reviewed your gallery and other shooting seems equally important to you. You'll need good glass of course; "L" lenses will become an additional expense. Telephoto lenses will not have the additional 1.6X boost that I've come to depend on for moon shots. No one camera is perfect and the 5D has its limitations: See reviews on Luminous Landscapes;Robgalbraith.com, Steve's forums; Cameratown.com,etc. Stay away from forums, however and get your suggestions from owners of the 5D. There are a thousand +++ and --- opinions out there and a lot of anti-Canon folks trying to sabotage FF fever. Be wary of the folks who go into a store play with it for 15' and then get on a forum...
Lastly, there's a whitepaper on Canon that focuses on the 5D. Based on the great technical advice above, recent reviews(based on field experience) and your broad shooting needs along with a need for FF at 12.8 mega pixels...I think you'll be ready do jump for a 5D before Xmas. I also took the plunge and got a Canon 24-105 L IS. It works perfectly with the 5D. Good luck with your decisions...it's a big step, and I think you've already decided.
Wayne


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11/27/2005 11:37:43 AM

 
Melissa  L. Zavadil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/26/2005
  Thanks Wayne! I really appreciate the input. I actually purchased the 5D only a few days ago. I am finding a lot of things that it does not have compared to the 20D, which is a bummer for me. But, it seems to take incredible pictures! I am so impressed at how the focusing is completely different! I did a photoshoot yesterday and ALL my shots were completely right on the dime focused---this was NOT so with the 20D! This in and of itself was a HUGE reason to switch! I am bummed that it does not have a pop up flash! I never even thought about that until I recieved my camera. I have several different flashes that will work with it but for my everyday shots I just hate to carry around that huge 420 or other! :( Oh well, can't have it all! I agree with you about the L lenses that is all I own now! Once you have one of those puppies you can NOT go back. I owned my first one for one month then decided to switch ALL my lenses out for ALL L series! :)
Thanks for your input!


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11/27/2005 8:28:44 PM

 
Gregory LaGrange
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/11/2003
gregorylagrange.org
  They have to be better photographers than the people who blast away at 5 or 8 fps.
Valid point


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11/28/2005 12:48:55 AM

 
Craig  Paulsen   The best wedding photographer I know just got the MarkIIN. I asked him why not more MP's and he said more than that and your just wasting money. Better to spend good money on lenses. He to told me if you know your exposures and use the best glass the 20D can have Magazine quality.
He didn't feel that the 5D had much to offer for him to buy it, but thinks that the next version will be something worth the money (should be a threat to MF).


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11/28/2005 2:30:16 AM

 
Melissa  L. Zavadil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/26/2005
  Gregory, I guess you have a huge chip on your shoulder and think you need to prove to someone--who the heck knows that you are a great photographer. For me I just let my work be evaluated as is and I don't try to knock how others capture them. enough said

Craig, you obviously did not read the whole thread


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11/28/2005 8:55:17 AM

 
Gregory LaGrange
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/11/2003
gregorylagrange.org
  The point was made, and it is a valid point. You dismissed it as ridiculous when it's not. It takes more to anticipate, react, or pick your spots than to shoot several frames and see if anything happened in between them.
You're sounding like you were in your post complaining about that motocross photo that got selected in the contest.


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11/28/2005 1:59:42 PM

 
Melissa  L. Zavadil
BetterPhoto Member Since: 2/26/2005
  Gregory, you must be 17 grow up.


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11/28/2005 2:07:40 PM

 
Gregory LaGrange
BetterPhoto Member Since: 11/11/2003
gregorylagrange.org
  F
Help for over inflated egos, this way.


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11/28/2005 2:26:17 PM

 
Craig  Paulsen   Craig, you obviously did not read the whole thread

don't have to, I'm an American


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11/28/2005 10:15:22 PM

 
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